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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 895 (884658)
03-01-2021 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
03-01-2021 6:59 AM


Throwing It All Away Like A Good Critical Thinker
jar writes:
What does the evidence show Phat. Look at how many Gods have found humans. Try to list them all and soon you will realize that the actual number of gods that have found humans exactly matches the number of humans that have created god.
Thus you are concluding that there is no such thing as a Christian salvation experience. You are concluding (since you concluded this for yourself) that those of us whom you lump together as "Biblical Christians" are as a group...each and every one of us...as delusional as you yourself (would) be had you asked Jesus Christ into your heart and surrendered your logic, reason, and perceived reality to Him. Thus....having willfully never taken that CCoI step, you challenge me to think as you thought and to throw God (and organized religion and all that I have and had been taught AWAY.
Essentially, the way that I see and feel it, you are asking me to even throw my salvation experience and what I have and had felt and believed and said through prayer and heard as a still small voice...AWAY. You are challenging me to be a good critical thinker and attempt to falsify my own salvation experience(s). Right or Wrong?
And by the way.....many demons have found humans. I suspect that in your pantheon of deities, all but one is fake. Will the real GOD please stand up?
And I have asked repeatedly how you or anyone else can possibly know they have met God or been in God's presence and neither you or anyone else has been able to answer.
I cant speak for everyone, but I would never ask myself such a stupid question. One either believes or doesn't. Absolute knowledge may or may not occur before I die physically...and perhaps not even then. I have felt presence and confirmation in the form of inner peace.
I need not know.
Perhaps that is one way that you and I differ.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 03-01-2021 6:59 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 177 of 895 (884667)
03-01-2021 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by PaulK
03-01-2021 11:51 AM


Re: Word Eternal
I did do the homework, though I admit that I did it the lazy way and simply googled it. The two verses in the Gospel of john came up as did Revelation
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God (Revelation 19:13

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by PaulK, posted 03-01-2021 11:51 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 03-02-2021 11:22 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 179 by dwise1, posted 03-02-2021 1:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 182 of 895 (884761)
03-07-2021 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by AZPaul3
03-06-2021 11:38 PM


Re: Sundae Skripture Reeding
Why not have J.Noble Daggett ride in on that horse while he comes to pay Rooster Cognurn!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2021 11:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 10:39 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 184 by dwise1, posted 03-07-2021 7:46 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 185 of 895 (884792)
03-08-2021 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by dwise1
03-07-2021 7:46 PM


Re: Sundae Skripture Reeding
Oh Hush! J.Noble Daggett was a character in the 1969 movie True Grit. He was the lawyer that protected little matties interests and he made an appearance near the end of the movie. The humor is the fact that John Fiedler, who played the character in 1969, was very similar to AZ Pauls "Mr.Deity".
John Fiedler in True Grit:
Mr. Deity:

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by dwise1, posted 03-07-2021 7:46 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by dwise1, posted 03-08-2021 4:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 188 of 895 (884801)
03-08-2021 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by AZPaul3
03-08-2021 11:28 AM


Re: Compromise.
Thanks, AZPaul3. Ive actually listened to a few of the Way Of The Mister episodes myself and will say that the guy makes some logical arguments. More "logical" than many of the apologists who begin (as do I) with the initial premise that God exists and then attempt to defend it. I am finding out that it is hard to do and that a loyal critical thinker would be unafraid to "throw God away" in the pursuit of truth. Which leads me now to believe that critical thinkers never settle for any absolute...they keep on going. So a question: IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE A BELIEVER AND A STRONG CRITICAL THINKER?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 11:28 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 03-08-2021 4:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 192 by Taq, posted 03-08-2021 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 193 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2021 6:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 196 by kjsimons, posted 03-08-2021 7:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 189 of 895 (884803)
03-08-2021 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by dwise1
03-08-2021 4:06 AM


Brian Keith Dalton Examined
I was curious. So I watched this long video.
I certainly see your point...and am actually impressed with Daltons presentaton. Being an ex-Mormon, Dalton never really knew Jesus Christ as my group claimed to know Him, but as I watched more of what Dalton said (around 18 minutes in untill 25 minutes) I realized that he has a great argument. Very logical and persuasive.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by dwise1, posted 03-08-2021 4:06 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 895 (884853)
03-10-2021 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
03-08-2021 4:02 PM


Re: Compromise.
I believe some of what you do and disagree with some.
jar writes:
I'm a believer. Even more, I am a life long Christian believer.
But I also understand that I am a life long Christian believer because I was born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian society and educated in a Christian school.
I understand that it is a path not a "TRUTH".
I understand that my belief is not reasonable, rational or logical.
I understand that had I not been born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian society and educated in a Christian school I might still be a believer but in a whole different set of beliefs and paths.
I'm a believer. Having been born and raised in a Christian family, raised in a Christian/Secular society and educated in a public school, I was taught about God through the lens of my upbringing. and of the values and teachings of the United Methodist church that I attended sporadically while young.
I never became aware of claiming to be a believer until after I accepted Jesus into my heart in a ceremony which it could be argued through the lens of an outsider was simply symbolic. For me, however, it was when I actually became a Christian. I met Jesus. (Or technically, the Holy Spirit.) It was not a bad burrito. It was not the brainwashing of a cult nor the hyper emotionalism that a young girl or boy mighyt get at a Beatles concert or any other hyper-emotional event. The change was immediate, ongoing, and permanent. I came to EvC Forum ten years after my salvation experience and have been challenged, questioned, and at times even ridiculed and mocked. To your credit, you have only openly challenged the CCoI (we both named them at one time years ago.) I spent many a day pulling up a stump and setting a spell with you in particular.
I believe though cannot prove that I am a Christian believer because of my salvation/communion experience with a God Who is eternally alive and Who is not automatically "in" everybody. He is simply with all of us and only becomes in us when we publicly and willfully seek such a communion.
  • I understand that my belief is not reasonable, rational or logical.(to others at least) There are many questions and challenges against my particular belief and many of you here at EvC have raised and continue to raise them.
    Unlike you, I consider my belief to be both a path and a received TRUTH. I have learned not to push this onto others apart from my simple defense and increasing understanding of it.
    I understand and believe that had I not been born into a United Methodist/Masonic/secular thinking family here in the West, I may or may not have had the same basic beliefs which I now have. They likely would differ, but not so far as to simply embrac e another religion. There may be many paths up the mountain, but there is One character of God at the top, and He interacts with each seeker in a unique way. Thus we differ in our expression of our understanding.
    Edited by Phat, : ten years not one

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 190 by jar, posted 03-08-2021 4:02 PM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 201 by ringo, posted 03-11-2021 11:43 AM Phat has replied
     Message 202 by AZPaul3, posted 03-11-2021 12:46 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 200 of 895 (884854)
    03-10-2021 5:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 198 by kjsimons
    03-08-2021 9:39 PM


    Re: Compromise.
    I don't quite understand what you mean, kjsimons. It seems to me that the "evidence" is not objective (accessible to everyone) and thus likely not to be defined as evidence at all. Call it personal experience. Call it persuasive acceptance. For some it is acceptance of One God and only One. For others, it is a tacit acceptance of "many gods." For still others, it is but an amusing and ongoing argument of terminology, logic, and definition. Perhaps it was meant to be that there would never be objective evidence, for this then would allow everyone a forced pass into the club and perhaps God wanted only those who wanted to be in the club have the opportunity to be so.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 198 by kjsimons, posted 03-08-2021 9:39 PM kjsimons has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 205 of 895 (884929)
    03-15-2021 6:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
    03-11-2021 11:43 AM


    Re: Compromise.
    Because for one thing a mountain range analogy implies many "Gods". I feel that Monotheism is better than either pantheism, polytheism, dualism or the old standby of Monism.Hopefully I wont have to explain why.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 201 by ringo, posted 03-11-2021 11:43 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 206 by AZPaul3, posted 03-15-2021 10:44 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 207 by ringo, posted 03-15-2021 12:25 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 208 of 895 (884993)
    03-18-2021 1:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 204 by AnswersInGenitals
    03-14-2021 1:59 PM


    Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
    OK, first video:
    Transcript(Cameron) 00:43 writes:
    heaven is still going to have
    a )free will and
    b) no sin
    but then why in the world didn't god just start us out in heaven? like what is the point of all of this suffering and moral evil on earth?
    (Mr.Deity) Well first of all for as long as i can remember theists have been telling me that free will is the reason for evil...god has to allow us to freely choose good over evil even though he knew exactly what we would choose
    This is also one of Tangles arguments aginst the irationality of there being a God.
    Anything I say is going to sound as if I am simply making it all up and to be fair, I am. I am making up an answer that I would give Mr. Deity.
    Which is: God created the possibility of evil or, as Mr.Deity puts it, the ongoing freedom to have the right to be independent even in Heaven. ringo often asks what is so wrong with keeping the freedom to disagree with God even while still lobbying for the idea that everyone has a place in Heaven (even if they are rebels. My response is why limit your personal idea of Gods character to the fixed characters in the books? Im thinking that you guys dont understand how real God is to me. You are of course free to label it a fantasy or a delusion.
    AZPaul3 writes:
    If your invasive destructive god did as you say he did it would be written on the heavens. It isn't.
    First off, you are trying to define the God I worship and know (or think I know) in MY head. Yet you have already judged this God to be invasive and destructive. No wonder you could never let Him into your heart and mind even assuming for the sake of argument He DID exist. And the lot of you think the same way. Of course you all claim to belong to the rational group.
    (I will edit this later)
    Full Transcript writes:
    I've been seeing a lot of Cameron from the capturing Christianity channel lately he's debated or made videos about some of my buddies and comrades so i started watching his videos
    i'm going to be on his arguments a bit here actually quite a bit but i want to be clear right up front...I kind of like this cat he seems like a good guy he's genuine sincere and the reason i'm making this video he's obviously an intelligent articulate person which is why the title of this video makes me so sad but let's get to it so the objection goes like this heaven is still going to have
    A) free will and
    B)no sin
    but then why in the world didn't god just start us out in heaven like what is the point of all of this suffering and moral evil on earth?.. well first of all for as long as i can remember theists have been telling me that free will is the reason for evil god has to allow us to freely choose good over evil even though he he knew exactly what we would choose to don't expect this stuff to make sense if there's no sin in heaven what kind of freedom are we going to have i can choose between doing this good thing and doing this other good thing if i can't choose some sinful thing i want and I'll still have a sinful nature Jesus saves us from sin but clearly doesn't change our sinful nature then in what sense am i free to choose?
    I'm clearly only free to choose good that's not free will which again I've been told is the entire reason for evil in the first place Jesus said that lusting after a woman in your heart is adultery that's a top tier top 10 sin am i not going to be able to lust after all the beautiful perfected women in heaven if not how do i have free will if i take pascal's wager as many a christian has recommended and get into heaven without really believing or liking god am i free not to worship him and can i still think he's and if not i'm not free!
    I don't know what the hell Cameron's talking about here but let's continue i mean we could just admit that we don't know everything or anything about a supposed supernatural being and the supernatural realm he supposedly inhabits of which we have absolutely no evidence or actual knowledge whatsoever..
    probably god has some kind of reason or you don't have any kind of good reason as we'll see because the whole thing was made up by bronze and roman ignoramus is not in any way intelligent enough to think this stuff through and you likely bought it without really thinking about it either probably because of some overwhelming emotional experience or simple indoctrination as a kid ..
    and i mean the bible doesn't say that we should know the reasons behind everything that god does and we also definitely shouldn't fall into the trap of trying to bluff an answer when you don't actually have an answer as as you're about to do.
    I can think of at least three reasons that god would have to not just start everyone out in heaven let the bluffing of the answer begin in general it's just an extremely great good that people can choose to be in heaven can we now well then i choose to be in heaven right now? First of all who wouldn't choose heaven and why would god make some people he knew would choose heaven and some people he knew wouldn't surely since god knows everything he could have just created the people he knew would choose heaven in heaven no evil no suffering just what any omni-benevolent super being would do being able to choose to love god and enter into a relationship with him is a great good well what exactly is the alternative now if i don't choose to love god and enter into a relationship with him he'll torture me forever
    I don't think god understands this concept of free will that's duress and a choice i don't need so here's the deal you can either choose to love me and have a relationship with me or I'll murder your entire family right in front of you after i rape and sodomize your wife and daughters. I may even yeah i may even do your little guy
    Where exactly is the great good again suppose that a scientist like a mad scientist came up with some kind of love serum that could make anybody you want fall in love with you like it might be fun to dream or think about using this serum on somebody but would you actually want to use it wouldn't forced love be less valuable than actual genuine love from someone coming to love you on their own volition yes yes it would so why the is your god threatening me with eternal torture if i don't want a relationship with him does he really think people are going to genuinely love him while the sword of jesus christ is dangling over their heads
    The second reason shines light on the unthinkable goodness of what Jesus did on the cross for us i mean sacrificing yourself for like your loved ones or people that love you back is a really really fantastic good but sacrificing yourself for people that reject you and don't want anything to do with you jesus christ didn't sacrifice himself for the people who reject him and don't want anything to do with him those people are going to be tortured forever like can you even imagine a greater act of love than that than than saving the people who love you under great duress and torturing forever the people who won't pretend such a thing
    yes yes i can without any effort whatsoever but notice that none of this can happen what jesus did on the cross it can't happen without the existence of sin well i'm glad to see a religious person finally admitting that it really is all about him god he was obviously bored in his timeless void of nothingness and thought you know i'll create sentient beings and put them into an environment of evil with a sinful nature so that i can go down and sacrifice myself to myself and they'll all love me and praise me for it or else because i'll make them too
    stupid to realize that this miserable place never had to exist except for my need to play the hero. Jesus can't save us or sacrifice himself for us. if we don't need any saving okay i know I said at the beginning that i thought this guy was intelligent and i do but these are the kinds of stupid things religions make people say Jesus Christ starts the fire then puts it out and for that we're all supposed to be grateful after all the damage the fire did to us and our belongings that's a sociopath
    how does Cameron not see that god wanted to play hero so we all have to suffer horrifically and die? Cameron buddy that's not love that's Stockholm syndrome we'll have to look at the rest of this nonsense in part 2. until then i'll continue to be that guy with the secret. thanks for watching
    Seems Mister Deity wants to keep his rebellious traits...which is the whole reason that freethinkers reject God even if He DID exist. They want to keep their personality flaws and all.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-14-2021 1:59 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 209 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2021 9:23 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 211 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 12:26 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 212 of 895 (885015)
    03-19-2021 8:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 211 by dwise1
    03-19-2021 12:26 AM


    Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
    I appreciate your sharing and your persspective. This isnt your first rodeo, I can tell.
    So we are discussing what constitutes credulous versus incredulous observation.
    We need to keep human nature in mind and not simply jump to the conclusion that demons are popping up in society like Covid-19 mutations.
    Im keeping in mind also that many of the video captures of alleged demonic manifestations occur on the websites of deliverance ministries. Not too many independent sightings of such behavior. I reason that th demons, if they in fact have such ability or power, do not want to be publicized due to the consequences which would then occur regarding their presence. I also reason that most of the people are not consciously faking or exaggerating their prayer session, though they likely are expecting relief from their inner trials and tribulations when being prayed for. Its a bit like sick people expecting to get well when visiting old Oral Roberts back in the day.
    Thus I can and will maintain some skepticism pending further evidence. (Evidence for me being less strict. If I see it, I likely will believe it, all other things being normal. If I see it in person, I am much more likely to believe it after taking into account the behavior of not just the victim but of the others who see it with me. I know that I know that I heard voices in the air the one time that I witnessed something, and it was in my apartment too. Im only critical and skeptical due to others urging me to be so.The strongest evidence I will have is if it (a deliverance) happens to me and I experience dramatic change that is lasting in my life...such as I had when I got born again.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : added comment


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 211 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 12:26 AM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:40 PM Phat has replied
     Message 214 by dwise1, posted 03-19-2021 6:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 216 of 895 (885071)
    03-21-2021 9:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
    03-21-2021 3:12 AM


    Re: A Horseman Cometh
    I always liked Christopher. He was a wordsmith and often spoke in complete paragraphs rather than mere sentences. And even when faced with death, he never for a moment considered running over to the believers side.
    So I bet you think I think he is in hell, right? Actually were I God, I would love to personally adopt Christopher and take a long walk with Him in the great beyond.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2021 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 219 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2021 10:43 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 217 of 895 (885072)
    03-21-2021 9:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
    03-19-2021 12:40 PM


    Re: Mr.Deity Only Understands Gods in Literature
    Its not MY infallibility. If anything, it is His infallibility.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-19-2021 12:40 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 223 by ringo, posted 03-22-2021 12:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 221 of 895 (885084)
    03-22-2021 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 219 by Tangle
    03-21-2021 10:43 AM


    Re: A Horseman Cometh
    The tangled One writes:
    But, according to your belief system, he is going to hell isn't he?
    Depends who you ask and also depends how literal you are an authoritarian regarding scripture. I will say this much. Hell, if hell exists is a place where free will that rejects God even after meeting Him will (must) reside.
    Hell was never created for humans. It is a place where rebellious spirits must end up...since the universe(multiverse?) belongs to God and will where His loving judgement and edicts reign. God is giving all of us the timeframe and opportunity to choose. Christopher was very adamant that he would *never* accept such a God as the One of popular Christianity. Ironically, his less intelligent younger brother *did* accept God.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2021 10:43 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 222 by AZPaul3, posted 03-22-2021 12:00 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 224 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 225 of 895 (885097)
    03-22-2021 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 224 by Tangle
    03-22-2021 1:14 PM


    Re: A Horseman Cometh
    The excuses and explanations may all be relative but the truth is absolute.
    I can ask a thousand people and it wont matter. They all wont be right.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 224 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 1:14 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 226 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2021 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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