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Author | Topic: Anti-theist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Thats what you teach but it is not conclusive. There are many teachers and many who call themselves Prophets. My sisters church in St.Louis had a zoom class recently where the lesson was the following:
Reporter Studies How Christians React When Prophets They Follow Err The Wired Word for the Week of February 28, 2021 Christian Prophets Are on the Rise. What Happens When They’re Wrong? Ruth Graham of the NY Times authored the article, among 3 cited in our Zoom Class. My sisters church is more liberal and moderate than Isaiah Saldivar, my guy whom I insist has insight and an anointing and is not merely one of jars fake carny barking apologists whom he often derisevly mentions. My point? Clearly there are and will be false prophets and false teachers. I do not value nor respect the approach that you guys give to Christian teaching. There most certainly is and was a GOD long before trees even grew so that paper could be harvested with which to even make the first scrolls which were the Logos inspiration of the One God in Heaven communing with the primitive minds and hearts of man on this one little dust speck of a planet. To assert that the Bible was originally a product only of human imagination is ignorant at best. Dont push the idea that God is simply a product of human imagination in my direction---for I have experienced too much to even consider it. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OMG Enough with this little Mousey Whiner akin to 1970's True Grit Lawyer J.Noble Dagget. I will grant you that his argument has merit in that it is logical. All of you have valid arguments if in fact God did not exist and interact with our species through the Holy Spirit sent by GOD through Jesus Christ shortly before He died and was resurrected.
But for some reason, a few of you missed it. And it is not Gods fault. It is just a result of your refusal to allow for Him to reveal Himself to your critically thinking skeptical minds. But its OK, AZ. You keep trying to get me to be an atheist and I will keep praying for better understanding of what I DO believe. The souls will fall where they may."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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OMG Enough with this little Mousey Whiner akin to 1970's True Grit Lawyer J.Noble Dagget. Oh there will be much more of him in the future, god willing and the creek don't rise.
It is just a result of your refusal to allow for Him to reveal Himself to your critically thinking skeptical minds. If you think some god is pining and whining for my personal attention - here I am. Through your personal sponsorship kindly inform your god, if it doesn't already know, that I await his pleasure. Tell it I surrender. I place myself at his mercy to come and reveal whatever the loving snot he wants outta me. I am his. Torture me if he must but I will know. I will have the knowledge. I will know the truth about the universe and on that knowledge alone I will be free in my own mind. Come to me, Whoever, God of Whatever. Phat says you're a good guy. History says you're a piece of shit. Science says you're a charlatan. So which is it? How many times have we each screamed that out into the aether of the internet? The aethernet? Now, I'm not against living forever in paradise but what is it I have to do to get that again? Specifics, please. And what does forever living in paradise entail? Not looking for a daily schedule or anything like that, though a few examples would be nice, but in medium kinda strokes what would you expect us to do up there in heavenly bliss with you on a general basis? I'll anxiously await your revelation. If I happen to doze off please wake me. I consider this important. [addendum] Hey Phat? I'm real rusty at this. How long do you guys hold onto a prayer before you figure he's not going to answer? Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: There most certainly is and was a GOD long before trees even grew so that paper could be harvested with which to even make the first scrolls which were the Logos inspiration of the One God in Heaven communing with the primitive minds and hearts of man on this one little dust speck of a planet. LOL Sure Phat. Or many such gods. Or lots of little gods. Or some god that disappeared tens of thousands of years ago. Or no god at all. You are simply spouting the Christian Snake-oil sales spiel. That's not an argument. Go and actually read what is written and stop listening to the Christian Profits. If quoted it for you many many many many times. If you like I'll quote it for you yet again. What is written? What is actually written in the fable? Not what the Profits sell but rather what is actually written?
quote: It's a "Just So" story Phat. Read it. The story was written to explain the origin of the Tribe of Israel (a kinda important point, in fact far more important than Jesus to the author and the audience), why it's understandable that people will always struggle with both god and other humans and why the Israelite's don't eat certain foods (also far more important to the author and audience than Jesus).
Phat writes: To assert that the Bible was originally a product only of human imagination is ignorant at best. What does the evidence show Phat? You make the claim, now support it with evidence or reasoned argument.
Phat writes: Dont push the idea that God is simply a product of human imagination in my direction---for I have experienced too much to even consider it. No one has suggested that you don't believe that Phat. Yet you can never ever (just like every other Biblical Christian) provide any evidence or reasoned argument in support of that position. On the other hand, I can point to what is actually written to show that every god ever described is simply the product of the human imagination. The story of Jacob's struggle is simply yet another example in support of my position. Edited by jar, : fix quotationMy Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It looks to me like the critical thinking that you were taught blocked the possibility of you ever becoming a believer. It is as if you were handed the answer and rather than receive it, you wadded it up and tossed it away, likely the doctrine of an agnostic. You have even said before that agnosticism is a reasonable position and that in fact Islam is closer to the right path than is Biblical Christianity. Having never met Gods presence you have no internal reference point from your experiences. You were taught instead to ask how such a reference would be possible. You were taught to throw away easy answers and seek more questions.
Now tell me that I am misrepresenting what you say..."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
How many times must I point out that God is never found through evidence. Yoiu seem to think that IF GOD(God) were provable objectively that method alone would make Him knowable by everyone. And I would point out that this was never the expectation. Humans do not simply find God. God finds us. You evidently were too busy asking more questions and challenging the feeling (bad burrito, perhaps?) then you were accepting it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Yes, you are misrepresenting what I say. Remember Phat, everyone can actually read what I write.
Phat writes: Yoiu seem to think that IF GOD(God) were provable objectively that method alone would make Him knowable by everyone. No Phat that is not what I think, that is a supportable conclusion. If something can be shown objectively to exist then it is absolutely knowable by anybody.
Phat writes: Humans do not simply find God. God finds us. What does the evidence show Phat. Look at how many Gods have found humans. Try to list them all and soon you will realize that the actual number of gods that have found humans exactly matches the number of humans that have created god.
Phat writes: Having never met Gods presence you have no internal reference point from your experiences. And I have asked repeatedly how you or anyone else can possibly know they have met God or been in God's presence and neither you or anyone else has been able to answer.My Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Thus you are concluding that there is no such thing as a Christian salvation experience. You are concluding (since you concluded this for yourself) that those of us whom you lump together as "Biblical Christians" are as a group...each and every one of us...as delusional as you yourself (would) be had you asked Jesus Christ into your heart and surrendered your logic, reason, and perceived reality to Him. Thus....having willfully never taken that CCoI step, you challenge me to think as you thought and to throw God (and organized religion and all that I have and had been taught AWAY. What does the evidence show Phat. Look at how many Gods have found humans. Try to list them all and soon you will realize that the actual number of gods that have found humans exactly matches the number of humans that have created god. Essentially, the way that I see and feel it, you are asking me to even throw my salvation experience and what I have and had felt and believed and said through prayer and heard as a still small voice...AWAY. You are challenging me to be a good critical thinker and attempt to falsify my own salvation experience(s). Right or Wrong? And by the way.....many demons have found humans. I suspect that in your pantheon of deities, all but one is fake. Will the real GOD please stand up?
And I have asked repeatedly how you or anyone else can possibly know they have met God or been in God's presence and neither you or anyone else has been able to answer. I cant speak for everyone, but I would never ask myself such a stupid question. One either believes or doesn't. Absolute knowledge may or may not occur before I die physically...and perhaps not even then. I have felt presence and confirmation in the form of inner peace. I need not know. Perhaps that is one way that you and I differ. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
I didn't say I don't treat them alike. I only meant that they were constructed by different people in different times. So what’s missing that would cause you to treat god in the same way you treat jesus? Or is there some additional element here that prevents their both being treated alike?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What I said doesn't "lead" to that question. You're just trying to evade what I said. Which leads to several questions.How does the Bible describe God as sounding (as reported by those who claimed to hear Him?) Try again:
quote:Have you done the homework? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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The really funny thing is that Phat could answer your question if he did his homework. It doesn’t take much. But like many Christians he seems allergic to the Bible.
(John 1 14-18)
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I did do the homework, though I admit that I did it the lazy way and simply googled it. The two verses in the Gospel of john came up as did Revelation
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God (Revelation 19:13 "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Then you should understand that the word "word" does not refer to Jesus. I did do the homework.... I did a quick (30 minute) scan again this morning: Interestingly, the word "word" is capitalized only in John 1:1 and John 1:14 in the KJV. But it's the same word, capitalized or not, G3056 in Strong. Here's every instance of the word "word" in John:
quote:Note that the context usually suggests that the word is separate from Jesus. Here's every instance in the whole New Testament where "Jesus" and "word" are used in the same verse:
quote:Note the context again. "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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I did do the homework, though I admit that I did it the lazy way and simply googled it. Yep, the typical way that theists (especially YECs) do "research": Google for a keyword, then copy-and-paste without ever having to read what you're copying let alone making any effort at all to try to understand any of it. I have two shining (assuming you could polish a turd) examples: 1. An aggressively activist creationist with whom I had a long email correspondence and who, like you, has been given to lurking creepily around schools in order to prey on young children. He had repeated the utterly brain-dead caricature "definition" of punctuated equilibria (PE) as "a snake laid an egg and a bird hatched out." And he did so even after I had explained his mistake to him in some detail, so I challenged him to explain PE to me. He replied with a very well-written description of PE which was quite surprisingly accurate. And then a bit later he repeated his stupid "bird hatching out of a snake egg" yet again! When I took him to task for that, he pulled his usual dishonest evasive tricks of either changing the subject or simply running away yet again. Well, the fact that his accurate description of PE was so well-written should have been the first clue to what he had done -- he could never ever hold his own in any discussion nor could he ever discuss nor defend any of his own claims despite repeatedly describing himself as a genius (perhaps nowadays a "stable genius"?). It is now obvious that he had simply search the Web for an article on PE and did a copy-and-paste without having learned a single damned thing. 2. Do you remember Crazynutsx, a member here from May-June 2011 (EvC Forum: Crazynutsx Topic Index)? A young gamer from the UK and a YEC who had created his own creationist forum which he announced here to recruit members. A few of us, myself included, took him up on it. He very quickly realized that he was in way over his head. Not only did he repeatedly commit plagiarism in his "replies" (for which I lectured him sternly), but he as an admin then resorted to deleting both his own and other members' posts and then lying about it. He finally abandoned his own forum without notice, after which it had been taken over by Japanese hackers who used it mainly to advertise merchandise and dental services. I'm not sure what its current status is, though I think I've seen some subsequent attempts of new people trying to add to the creationism threads. In the case that brings this up, he had posted the tired old "leap seconds" claim (ie, "at the rate that the earth's spin is slowing down, a few millions of years ago it would have been spinning impossibly fast hence it must be young" -- when he created the claim, Walter Brown did not understand leap seconds and so came up with a deceleration rate that was hundreds of times higher than it actually is; see my page, DWISE1'S CREATION / EVOLUTION PAGE: Earth's Rotation is Slowing for more information). At one point (the end of it, actually), he "wrote" a reply which was a complete copy-and-paste plagiarism. Not only that, but he had copy-and-pasted the classic refutation of his own claim: Thwaite and Awbrey's As the World Turns: Can Creationists Keep Time? (1982). That is called a "double howler." So if you do no more than to blindly copy-and-paste without trying to learn anything, then you will be in danger of making a complete fool of yourself. Yeah, yeah, I know! You are proud to be considered a fool since Jesus said that you would be called a fool for believing in him. During the Jesus Freak Movement (c. 1970) there was even a clown ministry called "Fools for Christ" (absolutely true story; they even appeared in full clown makeup). But that is not what's happening. You (and these two examples) are not being considered fools for believing in Jesus, but rather because you (pl) are doing and saying foolish things completely independent of any religious belief. And furthermore, instead of demonstrating the strength of your faith, your (pl) persistent foolishness only serves to discredit both you and your religion including your god. Why insist on doing damage to the Cause of Christ?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
OK some of you may not find this humorous.
Then again, you may not find much of anything humorous. That would seem to be a rather sad way to go through life but I don't walk in your shoes so who am I to judge. This is humor. It's also a bit of a sword. PZ Myers' blog Pharyngula He's going to kill god for us. Our true savior has come. Watch the logic go “Wheeeeeeee!” Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation. |
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