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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 895 (884207)
01-27-2021 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by PaulK
01-27-2021 12:02 PM


Re: Guilt By Association
PaulK, to Stile writes:
I suggest that you do, in fact, use evidence to at least a degree. Your wife, for instance, agreed to marry you rather than taking out a restraining order.
Hi Paul. Yes, it always seems to me that there are a few (but only a few) sticking points that prevents agreement or consensus between us.
They are:
1) Evidence
2) Relativism versus Christian Trinitarian Monotheism
3) Critical Thinking as a way of life and the sole approach towards examining belief systems...as opposed to necessary suppression of such a skill. (If you don't stand for something you may fall for anything)
Do you see (or are able to define) any additional sticking points in my arguments versus atheists/critical thinkers/skeptics? Or are my 3 the main issues?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by PaulK, posted 01-27-2021 12:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 01-27-2021 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 895 (884236)
01-31-2021 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by AZPaul3
01-31-2021 9:56 AM


Freedom of Speech vs Harmful Speech
Ahh yes. Our esteemed Mister. J.Noble Dagget is my name for him.
We shall ezamine his argument:
transcript writes:
I will brutally mock and satirize you for the silly things you pretend to know
I'll break down the walls you've built to keep yourselves from having to
rationally justify the mere superstition you cling to and ask others to respect I
will do everything within my power to take from you every advantage you now
feel so entitled to after the centuries and millennia of privilege you once
secured by threats of violence and murder I will fight to keep your
nonsensical beliefs out of our children's classrooms and textbooks and
I will do everything I can to inform and educate your young believers whom you my
religious friends have been indoctrinating since their very first breaths...
I cant argue against his claim in the sense that its false...for there is truth in his claim and likely some evidence in history of it being the case. He is wrong about several things, however.
1) My belief is no mere superstition. I have seen repeated evidencee of a spiritual conflict within humanity. Granted I have also seen that a majority of such claims is faked or exaggerated. This is to be expected in a spiritual conflict/war for obvious reasons. One of the goals of the enemy is to discredit and obfuscate what is real. As CS Lewis once said, Satans neatest trick is convincing people that he does not exist.
2) I fail to see why atheists have their panties in such a wad over teaching about religions in school. Not only that, but why the fear of having them indoctrinated with other beliefs than the critically thinking evidence based crap you push on them which reinforces the idea of never believing? If I catch your "kid" in a dark alley I shall freely and boldly share my faith and you and an army of liberal activists wont stop me. First, I will convince them that they need not shut me down. I certainly wouldn't force my beliefs...I would get their permission first.
As for J.Noble Dagget, he can spout his nonsense freely on You Tube until the cows come home. And you can freely present it here. Where I shall challenge it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2021 9:56 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2021 10:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2021 1:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 895 (884237)
01-31-2021 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Stile
01-27-2021 2:14 PM


Re: Guilt By Association
I would agree. For me personally, a belief based approach challenges those of you who favor evidence based approaches.
All that I am trying to get you to accept is that belief is possible. It need not be categorized as fantasy. I feel that I have had enough experience to accept this premise, at any rate.
In addition, the reason that I never get anywhere with jar is that he wants me to throw away what I think is evidence (experiences and observations) and see God as a mere human created character in a book.
It is for this reason that I discount his claim to being a believer...all that he apparently believes in is his own mind and conclusions and biases.
Of course, to be honest, I can claim no better.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 01-27-2021 2:14 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 895 (884246)
02-01-2021 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by AZPaul3
01-31-2021 10:17 PM


Re: Freedom of Speech vs Harmful Speech
AZPaul3 writes:
Your religious beliefs are not mere superstition. They are evil superstitions of violent inhumane hatred.
Nonsense. Quit listening to the ideas in your head that you should hate GOD or Jesus. Jesus IS God. Period. Any relativistic ideas to the contrary are simply wrong. You likely will never understand this, though since you think that you actually understand what it is that you DO believe. Perhaps next time that you smoke a joint, you can lecture me on the Tao of the universe and karma and how I really hate people and you really don't. I was poking fun at your seriousness regarding indoctrinating your kid...or a younger vimesey on the tube, (he likely would have preferred thee woman) But I think that I would NEVER try and discus a subject such as the Bible with someone I had just met or had known for less than 6 months or so.
Your religion, Phat, is a superstitious fantasy of evil, blood, suffering and death. Your very humanity should be ashamed.
Nonsense. If more people believed and followed the precepts of what Jesus taught, much would improve in this world. They certainly poison themselves and society when they believe some of the modern lies such as Cancel Culture
It seems that many of you are incapable of seeing God as anything more than a character in a book. The demons which plague you have blinded you to this reality and some day the veil will be lifted and the blinders will come off of peoples minds and eyes. The supernatural realm will become virtually undeniable. At this time, I think...people will either become even more violently opposed to GOD or they will surrender joyfully to His beckoning call.
With that base of evil in your soul, despite protestations to the contrary, you are primed to make war on humanity if so ordered by your god as revealed by your favored priests. The only thing that keeps you and yours from continuing to perpetrate this holy evil against humanity is the even greater power of a liberal secular society that will kill you right back.
Not quite. We are primed to make war against the demons which control your thoughts and minds. We have nothing against you personally.(At least I don't.) And there will be no killing except binding the evil spirits. They tried and failed to kill Jesus the first time and they wont be able to do that again.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2021 10:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 02-01-2021 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 98 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-01-2021 3:30 PM Phat has replied
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2021 2:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 895 (884250)
02-01-2021 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by AnswersInGenitals
02-01-2021 3:30 PM


Re: The truth will out.
after he died?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-01-2021 3:30 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-01-2021 7:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 895 (884399)
02-15-2021 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
02-02-2021 2:49 PM


Re: Freedom of Speech vs Harmful Speech
Tsk, Tsk AZPaul3! For every little gem that you produce in your anti religious temper tantrums, I can refute and do so logically. I will defend some of your ideas,(and those of your "friends") however, if they have logical merit and anything more than a willful disdain for Jesus Christ.
So to begin:
AZPaul3 writes:
Due to the engagement of my limited neuronic abilities with the superbowl there was not enough capacity left to compose the usual Sunday sermon.
I have opted for the easy way to address this deficiency with today's listing of observations and opinions from some of my long time friends.
OK lets examine each of your so-called friends. To me, they simply look as if they are people whom you agree with (in order to prove your biased point)
  • Mark Twain-- Twain was a humorist and saw the folly and hypocrasy generated by organized religion. I admired his wit and, in fact have one of his quotes in my signiture.
  • Robert Ingersoll--
    quote:
    The Madison trial occurred when young Robert was nine years old, and it was the unjust and bigoted treatment his father received which made him the enemy, first of Calvinism, and later of Christianity in its other forms.
    Many of the most vocal atheists/agnostics have had personal negative experiences connected with religious beliefs.
    quote:
    In a lecture entitled "The Great Infidels", he attacked the doctrine of Hell: "All the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness, all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which the heart of man is capable, grew blossomed, and bore fruit in this one word — Hell."
    Ingersoll, a logical man, found little reason to trust Jesus Christ. Whether or not that was a mistake in his judgement is unknown objectively nat this time.
    AZPaul3 writes:
    The ideas in my head were put there by your bible. Have you ever read that horror story?
    To say nothing of your religion's swath of blood as it ate through the heart of humanity these last 2000 years. Your creed's history leaves a lot of hate in its demented bloodthirsty wake, Phat.
    A Bible cannot "put ideas" in your head unless you choose to accept them and focus on them. To one, a glass is half empty. To another it is half full.
    William Lane Craig did a masterful response (addressing Christopher Hitchens) regarding the problem of evil argument.
    transcript of debate writes:
    I think it's important to distinguish between the intellectual problem of suffering and the emotional problem of suffering (134:48)
    because these are quite different from each other. In terms of the intellectual problem of suffering, I think that there you need to ask yourself is the atheist claiming, as Epicurus did,
    that the existence of God is logically incompatible with the evil and suffering in the world?
    If that's what the atheist is claiming then he's got to be presupposing some kind of hidden assumptions that would bring out that contradiction and make it explicit because these statements are not explicitly contradictory.
    The problem is no philosopher in the history of the world has ever been able to identify
    what those hidden assumptions would be that would bring out the contradiction and make it explicit. On the contrary, you can actually prove that these are logically compatible with each other by adding a third proposition, namely, that God has morally sufficient reasons
    for permitting the evil in the world. As long as that statement is even possibly true, it proves that there's no logical incompatibility between God and the suffering in the world. So the atheist would have to show that it is logically impossible for God to have morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evil and suffering
    in the world and no atheist has ever been able to do that. So, that the logical version of this problem, I think, is widely recognized to have failed. Those atheists who still press the problem therefore press it as a probabilistic argument. They try to say that, given the evil in the world, it's improbable that God exists, not impossible but improbable.
    Well, again, the difficulty there is that the atheist has to claim that if God did exist then it is
    improbable that he would permit the evil and suffering in the world.
    And how could the atheist possibly know that?
    How could the atheist know that God would not, if He existed, permit the evil and suffering in the world. Maybe He's got good reasons for it.
    Maybe, like in Christian theism, God's purpose for human history is to bring
    the maximum number of people freely into his kingdom to find salvation and eternal life
    and how do we know that that wouldn't require a world that is simply suffused with natural and moral suffering. It might be that only in a world like that (that)the maximum number of people would freely come to know God and find salvation.
    So the atheist would have to show that there is a possible world that's feasible for God which God could've created that would have just as much salvation and eternal life and knowledge of God as the actual world but with less suffering. And how could the atheist prove such a thing? It's sheer speculation.
    So the problem is that, as an argument, the Problem of Evil makes probability judgements which are very, very ambitious and which we are simply not in a position to make with any kind of confidence.
    Now, I recognize that that philosophical response to the question doesn't deal with the emotional problem of evil and I think that for most people, this isn't really a philosophical problem,...
    Your religion, Phat, is a superstitious fantasy of evil, blood, suffering and death. Your very humanity should be ashamed.
    Many humans have behaved and acted badly...both theists and atheists. Anti theists are simply loud and proud of their freedom from God. It shall be short lived.
    AZPaul3 writes:
    Phat, your creed is the poster child for cancel culture. Except instead of ignoring us on social media your adherents torture us and kill us dead.
    The demons have every reason to be afraid. They will be rounded up and controlled. We seek not to do this against our fellow humans, but your stubbornness may lead to collateral damage. Best just surrender to God.
    And no, you will never imprison or shut us up either. Best just drop this whole assault on reality.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 02-02-2021 2:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 12:32 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 107 of 895 (884405)
    02-16-2021 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 106 by PaulK
    02-16-2021 12:32 AM


    The Problem Of Evil
    PaulK writes:
    Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct.
    Not necessarily.
    the argument from evil broken down by Australian Philosopher John Mackie. Note Mackies line of reasoning.
    quote:
    Mackie is claiming that the following three propositions cannot all be true:

    Go to the link and read Mackies full argument. It is fascinating.
    He concludes with this:
    quote:
    if God has made men such that in their free choices they sometimes prefer what is good and sometimes what is evil, why could he not have made men such that they always freely choose the good? If there is no logical impossibility in a man's freely choosing the good on one, or several occasions, there cannot be a logical impossibility in his freely choosing the good on every occasion. God was not, then, faced with a choice between making innocent automata and making beings who, in acting freely, would sometimes go wrong: there was open to him the obviously better possibility of making beings who would act freely but always go right.
    In that same Notre Dame philosophy course are several more questions to chew on.
    quote:
    1.Explain Leibnizs cosmological argument. Should the proponent of the argument say that the fact that God created contingent things is itself contingent, or necessary? Is the argument in the end a good argument for the existence of God? Why or why not?
    2.Explain Humes argument against the possibility of justified belief in God on the basis of testimony about miracles, and some of the problems we discussed with that argument. Do your best to reconstruct Humes argument in such a way that it avoids those objections
    .3.Explain the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, along with some of the objections discussed in class. Is the argument convincing? Would it change matters if we had good reason to believe in the existence of multiple universes? Does the improbability of the universes being life-supporting give us good reason to believe in multiple universes?
    4.Explain why the following sort of case (the case of Rowes fawn) poses a challenge for the believer in an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God:"... in some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering ...How should a traditional theist explain this sort of event? Does it provide good evidence that God does not exist? Why or why not?
    Edited by Phat, : structure

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 12:32 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 108 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2021 11:07 AM Phat has replied
     Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 11:56 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 110 of 895 (884412)
    02-16-2021 3:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
    02-16-2021 11:56 AM


    Re: The Problem Of Evil
    I googled The Miracle Of Theism and noted the expensive price which it is selling for. I may have to take a trip to the Library to study this book, though I gleaned a lot just by reading the introduction.
    Digging further, I was disappointed to learn that Mackey was an atheist, though I did note his argument from evil had been refuted, successfully according to him, by a man named Alvin Plantingas Free Will Defense
    Mackey is worthy of further study as he seems to intelligently present some deep well thought out arguments.
    On a random note, I do not believe that the most intelligent arguments are brought out by atheists, though there are far fewer Christians who are intelligent enough to engage in such philosophical discussions.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 11:56 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 3:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 111 of 895 (884413)
    02-16-2021 3:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 108 by Tangle
    02-16-2021 11:07 AM


    Re: The Problem Of Evil
    True, though you rely on several presumptions.
    1) That God does not exist apart from a human-centric character. The Bible explains the origin of right and wrong via the Tree of Knowledge.
    2) That humans are by nature good. (Good would have to be further defined)
    3) That there is no spiritual (supernatural) realm. This is, of course speculative and is assumed based (pro or con) on what we humans know (through experience) and what we want to be true.
    God seemed perfectly able to do it in Eden and presumably heaven.
    Both Eden and Heaven also had a villain.Eden had the serpent and heaven had the angelic war. You fail to mention those realities in your perfect God scenario.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 108 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2021 11:07 AM Tangle has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 113 of 895 (884448)
    02-19-2021 10:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
    02-16-2021 3:15 PM


    Re: The Problem Of Evil
    PaulK writes:
    I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they?
    John 10:25-30 writes:
    Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
    (from New International Version)

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2021 3:15 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2021 3:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 118 of 895 (884499)
    02-22-2021 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 117 by AZPaul3
    02-21-2021 7:58 PM


    Re: Guest Pastor
    Tooley seems to favor Methodological Naturalism. His debate with William Lane Craig was enjoyable to read as both men stimulated my thinking beyond its usual limited and biased boundries.
    AZPaul3 writes:
    (Tooley)...... argues along 4 lines that atheism is a more legitimate world view than theism.
    1. Atheism is philosophically the default starting view.
    2. The corporeal nature of the human mind.
    3. The argument from evil.
    4. The argument from hiddenness.
    William Lane Craig responds with 6 counter reasons of his own.Of course, you guys(jar,Tangle, nwr,xongsmith,PaulK,dwise1, and other secular humanist/atheist/agnostics) have a different foundational world view regarding God. My belief IS my foundation. The reason that it is is because I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that GOD exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. The reason that AZPaul3 made this anti theism diatribe was not only that he has a warped sense of amusement and mockery concerning my beliefs but that he feels entitled--obligated even to express his feelings which are 180 degrees removed from mine.
    quote:
  • At the most abstract level, then, theism provides a plausible metaphysical foundation for the existence of abstract objects. And that’s the first reason why I think it's plausible to believe in God.
  • God provides the best explanation of why the universe exists rather than nothing. Have you ever asked yourself why anything at all exists, or where the universe came from? Typically, atheists have said that the universe is just eternal, and that’s all. But surely this is unreasonable.
  • Many of you will ask incredulously what Craig(WLC) feels is so unreasonable about logic, reason, and "reality"...while I myself will go so far as to suggest that reality is not always as it appears and that just because you guys have never found ANY Objective evidence concerning a (supernatural) spiritual realm it DOES exist...I've experienced it.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2021 7:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2021 4:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 121 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2021 5:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 122 by nwr, posted 02-22-2021 6:04 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 125 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 3:18 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 126 of 895 (884522)
    02-23-2021 6:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 123 by dwise1
    02-22-2021 6:31 PM


    Where There Is Smoke, There Is Fire
    I suppose I cant get mad at you for using my own words against me...I was angry at the defiance of a culture that is turning its back on God. I would hurt no kids---including yours. Since we are stirring up the fires and disagreeing openly in this free-for-all topic, allow me to admit and openly acknowledge that you guys have been right in many cases which I defended and which were proven false.
    Months ago, Theodoric told me that Ravi Zacharias was a fraud and a charlatan, and I quite naturally attempted to defend him...not knowing the full extent of his sins.
    About the only thing I can defend or attempt to defend is my choice to represent Christianity and my growing awareness (which you all are tactfully encouraging) of my own public image regarding what it means to be a Christian. So I repent for my zealous defense of a man I honestly never knew.
    Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias
    The ministry itself is in tatters and it is readily apparent that a man with the reputation that Zacharias presented is striking a powerful blow against the rationality of Christianity itself. To their credit, they initiated their own private investigation.
    Report of Independent Investigation into Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias released recently, February 9th, 2021.
    I will admit that these allegations were proven beyond a reasonable doubt and that I ask myself why I, and many Christians, defend our own more than we likely would defend you.
    Edited by Phat, : added links. I'm just reading this stuff today, after I blew up at you guys.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by dwise1, posted 02-22-2021 6:31 PM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 132 by nwr, posted 02-23-2021 11:21 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 127 of 895 (884523)
    02-23-2021 7:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 125 by Tangle
    02-23-2021 3:18 AM


    Re: Guest Pastor
    Tangle writes:
    Why have you experience it but billions of others haven't?
    I believe that every soul will get an opportunity...likely in ways that none of us would even imagine.
    Why are you special and I'm not?
    I dont think that anyone is more special than anyone else, but the issue here is simply why some people understand a concept/belief before others do. That does not make them any smarter favored, or chosen.
    Why would a fair god reveal himself to you and not the Hindu, given that the stakes are our everlasting souls?
    Since I am defending my basic Theology, all the while attempting to learn, I can only agree with you regarding why. Its a question which we can speculate on possible answers. What I won't do is speculate that God likely does not exist.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 125 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 128 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 7:11 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 129 of 895 (884525)
    02-23-2021 7:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 128 by Tangle
    02-23-2021 7:11 AM


    Re: Guest Pastor
    Tangle writes:
    What you believe is irrelevant, the fact is you were chosen to be given the revelation and Mrs Jones wasn't. Why?
    I stick by my belief that the supernatural will come out of the closet and that Christians will get stronger. They will also become more hated. (No, its not a martyr complex...it appears to be shaping up this way)
    Then you can't learn. All you're actually prepared to do is accept information you already agree with.
    When I am convinced in my own mind and heart that something is true, I don't readily throw my belief or conclusion away. You and others have claimed to have once been as Christian(Catholic) as I am and in my opinion you threw your belief away far to early and easily.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 7:11 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 02-23-2021 8:49 AM Phat has replied
     Message 131 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2021 9:38 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 134 of 895 (884536)
    02-23-2021 1:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by jar
    02-23-2021 8:49 AM


    Tyrant Despots and the CCoI
    jar writes:
    It might be the tyrant despot that you and the CCoI market but nothing more than your average Tyrant Despot.
    If you call yourself a Christian...no matter which club you claim membership in, there will be a Second Coming of the living Jesus Christ. God is not simply some philosophical concept that we made up.
    The only Tyrant Despots that you or I will have to contend with will themselves be manifested through humans.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by jar, posted 02-23-2021 8:49 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by jar, posted 02-23-2021 4:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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