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Author | Topic: Anti-theist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
That’s really not very honest of Craig.
First, why would it be necessary to have absolute proof? If the argument is merely very strong it still needs a better answer. Second, God is supposedly only limited to what is logical possible. When Craig claims that it may be possible that bringing the maximum of people freely into God’s Kingdom requires this amount of suffering he is making a claim that it is logically impossible for that to be accomplished with less. Now that is a highly implausible claim - and theologically problematic for many Christians. But he doesn’t offer anything more than speculation. So it’s more desperate clutching at straws than anything. Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: Not necessarily.
Implicit in it is the fact that the argument from evil is almost certainly correct. the argument from evil broken down by Australian Philosopher John Mackie. Note Mackies line of reasoning.
quote: Go to the link and read Mackies full argument. It is fascinating. He concludes with this:
quote: In that same Notre Dame philosophy course are several more questions to chew on.
quote: Edited by Phat, : structure"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Why is it necessary to have any concept at all of right and wrong in a god made world? Without the concept of wrong, there's no concept of right. And vice-versa. Everybody just gets along.
God seemed perfectly able to do it in Eden and presumably heaven.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: I disagree. If the defence is you don’t have absolute proof and there’s a highly implausible way you could be wrong then it’s implicit that you are almost certainly correct. If you don’t accept that then you ought to give some reason why.
quote: Craig seems to be asserting that he isn’t familiar with Mackie’s argument. He certainly doesn’t address it Oh by the way I have some familiarity with Mackie’s work. I even own a copy of The Miracle of Theism and have referenced it here.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I googled The Miracle Of Theism and noted the expensive price which it is selling for. I may have to take a trip to the Library to study this book, though I gleaned a lot just by reading the introduction.
Digging further, I was disappointed to learn that Mackey was an atheist, though I did note his argument from evil had been refuted, successfully according to him, by a man named Alvin Plantingas Free Will Defense Mackey is worthy of further study as he seems to intelligently present some deep well thought out arguments. On a random note, I do not believe that the most intelligent arguments are brought out by atheists, though there are far fewer Christians who are intelligent enough to engage in such philosophical discussions. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
True, though you rely on several presumptions.
1) That God does not exist apart from a human-centric character. The Bible explains the origin of right and wrong via the Tree of Knowledge. 2) That humans are by nature good. (Good would have to be further defined) 3) That there is no spiritual (supernatural) realm. This is, of course speculative and is assumed based (pro or con) on what we humans know (through experience) and what we want to be true.
God seemed perfectly able to do it in Eden and presumably heaven. Both Eden and Heaven also had a villain.Eden had the serpent and heaven had the angelic war. You fail to mention those realities in your perfect God scenario. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The copy I have was quite cheap. It may still be readable on scribd, for free.
quote: Plantinga - who has contributed quite a lot of sophistry to the debate only managed to refute the Problem of Evil as a logical proof (and I regard the Free Will Defence as a failure even in that regard). I don’t consider that much of an achievement - and it leaves the evidential argument untouched.
quote: Mackie’s book is regarded as a classic, in my view rightly so.
quote: I’m not so sure, I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: I’m not greatly impressed by Plantinga or Craig, and if there are better theistic arguments, where are they? John 10:25-30 writes: Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."(from New International Version) "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I note that your quote offers no real answer. Instead it undermines Craig’s answer. Jesus’ flock do not need suffering to be brought freely into the Kingdom.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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The thinking goes
God made everythingWe've got suffering Therefore suffering is necessary We now need to make up a reason why the daft bastard did it this way. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Better yet - we just need to say that there must be a reason that we can't understand. That way, there's no need to waste our time thinking up the impossible.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Michael Tooley - Wikipedia, philosopher emeritus from the University of Colorado, Boulder
... argues along 4 lines that atheism is a more legitimate world view than theism. 1. Atheism is philosophically the default starting view.2. The corporeal nature of the human mind. 3. The argument from evil. 4. The argument from hiddenness. Robert Kuhn, no intellectual slouch in his own right, goes through point-by-point in this shortened sit down interview with Dr. Tooley for PBS.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tooley seems to favor Methodological Naturalism. His debate with William Lane Craig was enjoyable to read as both men stimulated my thinking beyond its usual limited and biased boundries.
AZPaul3 writes: (Tooley)...... argues along 4 lines that atheism is a more legitimate world view than theism. 1. Atheism is philosophically the default starting view.2. The corporeal nature of the human mind. 3. The argument from evil. 4. The argument from hiddenness. William Lane Craig responds with 6 counter reasons of his own.Of course, you guys(jar,Tangle, nwr,xongsmith,PaulK,dwise1, and other secular humanist/atheist/agnostics) have a different foundational world view regarding God. My belief IS my foundation. The reason that it is is because I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that GOD exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. The reason that AZPaul3 made this anti theism diatribe was not only that he has a warped sense of amusement and mockery concerning my beliefs but that he feels entitled--obligated even to express his feelings which are 180 degrees removed from mine.
quote:Many of you will ask incredulously what Craig(WLC) feels is so unreasonable about logic, reason, and "reality"...while I myself will go so far as to suggest that reality is not always as it appears and that just because you guys have never found ANY Objective evidence concerning a (supernatural) spiritual realm it DOES exist...I've experienced it. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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The arguments you quote from Craig don’t sound very good.
quote: First you need to establish how abstract objects exist (if they do) and why they need a metaphysical foundation. And that is the subject of major philosophical debate.
quote: And that’s just silly. Unless he can give a good reason why God exists - and he can’t - he’s just swapped one problem for another without gaining anything. Understanding the universe is a job for science, not bad apologetics.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I’ve read some of it and my assessment has changed. I was far too generous to Craig. The argument about abstracts is not just making contentious assumptions. It’s a confused mess which makes no sense. Well, that’s what you get for relying on sophistry.
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