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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (5th edition)
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8452
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 46 of 90 (883490)
12-10-2020 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
12-10-2020 11:18 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
But it doesn't work.
You can influence what people will do ...
Yeah, as a matter of fact it does work. You can condition a human to respond to specific stimuli with specific actions just like Pavlov's dog without any voluntary buy-in by the victim. Far beyond mere influence.
Brainwashing-and-reindoctriantion (pdf)
Brainwashing in Custody Cases: The Parental Alienation Syndrome (pdf)
How Brainwashing Works | HowStuffWorks
The kind of control that can be exercised by brainwashing goes far beyond mere influence.
My point with Phat was that the mind does change itself as a response to the stimuli that it receives, which is what you are saying.
From your Message 36
quote:
External stimuli can influence the transformation but only the mind itself can "control" the transformation.
This is only part true for the most common forms of persuasion employed in polite society: advertising, education etc. This is not at all true for the kinds of intense dominating techniques used by jesus camp, cultists and reich-wing demagogues.
Do the search, Google Scholar. The human brain, its processes and results, are quite manipulable from concerted outside control. Not just influence but control of the thought processes themselves. The constant barrage of specific stimuli will cause new synaptic connections to form and strengthen to the exclusion of others that have already formed and will now atrophy from disuse.
That is how the brain functions. And in cases of intense brainwashing it is not voluntary and leaves the victim no control over its effects. In the jesus camp video the children are not being influenced. Their minds are being rewired for control of their religious thought.
But this is a side tangent I'm sorry I got you into. In the context of your conversation with Phat you are right.
Message 27
quote:
We are ALL "being transformed" - some for the better, some for the worse. The fact is that there is NO correlation between "transformation" and Christianity.
There is no hidden supernatural force that can be shown to be transforming human minds into good little Christian Soldiers. As usual with religionists seeking validation any supposed influence by some universal sky daddy to bring the beauty of Christianity to a deserving individual by screwing with the wiring in their brain is nothing more than another in a long line of mystical articles of faith denied by reality.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 12-10-2020 11:18 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-06-2023 9:59 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5904
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 47 of 90 (883491)
12-10-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
12-10-2020 8:08 AM


Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?
Yes, of course! And far better than most believers ever could. Because a believer would just repeat the fairy tales he had been raised on instead of digging into the actual history and investigating the external sources that the Bible had drawn on (eg, the Babylonian creation and flood myths, the Code of Hammurabi). Instead of seeking information and the truth, he would have a vested interest in supporting his fairy tales, just as creationists and Trump lemmings do.
For example, whom would you trust to give you a factual history of the founding of Mormonism? A non-Mormon scholar? Or a believing Mormon who would insist on the literal truth of the golden plates and Joseph Smith's ability to translate them through mystical means?
And whom would you trust to give you a factual account of the founding and operation of Scientology? An outsider who has investigated them for decades?
Or a true believer who has gotten clear and been given access to the briefcase with the central myth (which is complete and utter bullshit craziness)?
Of course, an atheist examining the Bible could be trying to disprove it. But even then an atheist would do so using actual facts, so even if you do not accept the disproof you will still benefit from learning actual facts. In contrast, reading a believer's apologetics based on fairy tales would still leave you starved of actual facts.
I could care less what Asimov's credentials are...he is speaking on a subject with which he has no familiarity.
That makes absolutely no sense at all. If you actually study a subject, then you will have familiarity with that subject regardless of whether you believe in it or not. And indeed, as a non-believer you should have far more familiarity with the subject because you would have studied all aspects of the subject, including both its strengths and weaknesses, whereas a believer would only study the strengths and ignore the weaknesses (even to the point of denying that the weaknesses even exist).
This also gets us into the differing goals of religious education and secular education. As I have often quoted from the California science education guidelines, the goal of education is that the student understand the subject matter and not to compel belief. In sharp contrast, the goal of religious education is indoctrination in which the student is compelled to believe (and "balanced treatment" creationist educational materials have been found to end every lesson compelling the student to make a life choice right then and there between an "unnamed Creator" and "atheistic evolution"). In my own online experience with creationists, when I have urged that they study evolution in order to learn what it really is and says, they have rejected that idea absolutely because "that would require me to believe in evolution".
Also, a believer's familiarity with the Bible is through his own religious education which is characterized by reading individual verses or small groups of verses and interpreting them out of context. In contrast, a non-believer would be far more likely to read entire chapters and books of the Bible such that when he reads those same verses he would be reading and interpreting them in context. Indeed, entire denominations of Christianity depend on out-of-context interpreting (and misinterpreting) of single verses.
He does not have the Holy Spirit nor do you.
What is that supposed to have to do with anything? How is that supposed to affect an honest scholarly work?
Of course, in your fairy tales the Holy Spirit is supposed to guide you to what the Bible actually says. Haven't you ever found it odd that millions of believers have been guided by the same Holy Spirit in learning what the same Bible actually says and they all come up with different results? If that magic trick by the Holy Spirit actually worked, then there should be only one single Christian church instead of the immense splintering of Christianity into a near-infinite number of churches all disagreeing vehemently with each other. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Facts are facts. Follow the facts. Spooky claims are no substitute for following the facts.
I've mentioned this one before, but it seems appropriate since Isaac Asimov's upbringing was Jewish. The 2011 movie, Mein Bester Feind ("My Best Enemy"), has as its MacGuffin an unknown sketch of Moses by Michelangelo owned by a Jewish art dealer. When his gentile best friend (later to join the SS) asked why Moses is depicted with horns, the art dealer explains that it was due to a Christian mistranslation adding, "Christians have no idea how to read the Bible." How true, how very true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 8:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 12-14-2020 3:54 AM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-04-2023 8:32 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18157
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 90 (883492)
12-10-2020 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
12-10-2020 11:18 AM


Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
Lets recap for a moment. Correct me if I'm wronly representing what you say or have said.
  • You once were religious and, like me, claim that you at one time believed in God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You allegedly were transformed through logic, reason, reality and evidence based thinking.
    Evidently you began to believe in something stronger than the Creator of all seen and unseen...or am I wrong? Do you have any belief in such a Deity at all these days?
    My point with Phat was that the mind does change itself as a response to the stimuli that it receives, which is what you are saying.
    The mind will feed on whatever zeitgeist(spirit of the age) that it is fed with. The Holy Spirit is preferable to the spirit of the age, which is chock full of information yet lacking in truth or love.
    And the mind does not need an external entity like a holy spook to change it.
    The mind will only transform through a transformative higher power.
    There are basically only two. The Holy Spirit
    The fake spirit of the new age. Take your pick and choose wisely.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by ringo, posted 12-10-2020 11:18 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 11:32 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 49 of 90 (883523)
    12-14-2020 3:15 AM


    The Age of Jesus and the Apostles 6BC-AD 70
    quote:
    Christianity's roots go back into Jewish history long before the birth of Jesus Christ. It was Jesus of Nazareth, however, who attacked established Judaism and brought a renewal movement into history's light early in the first century. After his crucifixion under Pontius Pilate, a Roman official, Jesus teachings spread throughout the Mediterranean area. An apostle named Paul was especially influential. He stressed God's gift of salvation for all men and thus led in Christianity's emergence from Palestinian Judaism to a position as a universal religion.
    As jar has also stated, the author says that "Jesus was a Jew. He came from a Jewish family; he studied the Jewish scriptures; he observed the Jewish religion. Any serious study of his life makes this so clear that many people have asked if Jesus ever intended to create that company of followers that we call the church." The author delves into this question in depth.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 50 of 90 (883524)
    12-14-2020 3:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by dwise1
    12-10-2020 4:17 PM


    Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    phat,addressing jar in response to plugging Asimovs Book writes:
    Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?
    dwise1 writes:
    Yes, of course! And far better than most believers ever could. Because a believer would just repeat the fairy tales he had been raised on instead of digging into the actual history and investigating the external sources that the Bible had drawn on (eg, the Babylonian creation and flood myths, the Code of Hammurabi). Instead of seeking information and the truth, he would have a vested interest in supporting his fairy tales, just as creationists and Trump lemmings do.
    Upon listening to this history, I found what appears to be a reputable author/historian and a well researched book. Christian History has many characters after the original Apostles passed on, and while much of the mythos was built from them, I fail to see the connections to the Babylonian myths which of you speak except through the idea of obvious inference. I do not believe that the accounts from the Apostles and original authors wer made up in any way and I feel that this assertion is somewhat misleading and false. I can deduce that there would be some who wished to discredit the stories in the Bible and could see criticism coming from that direction, however. Granted I will admit to some bias and do not approach this subject without some degree of presumption. I believe that Jesus existeed and that He did have quite an influence within tyhe local areas in which He grew up in. I also know that He had many detractors and many outright enemies though I see no logical reason why this would be so apart from the fact that His message was disrupting a lot of peoples livelihood. I will take this Book Nook topic and go over what the author discusses and we can discuss the honesty, scholarship, and facts as we discuss each section. The sections (which contain several Chapters each) are labeled as follows:
  • The Age of Jesus and the Apostles 6BC-AD 70
  • The Age of Catholic Christianity 70-312
  • The Age of the Christian Roman Empire 312-590
  • The Christian Middle Ages 590-1517
  • The Age of the Reformation 1517-1648
    Lets discuss these first. To begin with, I do not see the Bible as a fairy tale. I do, however, see the many disagreements as to the proper theology and interpretation of the book and its central character throughout church history. These first 5 sections represent 1650 years of church history. The US is nearly 245 years old, barely 1/6 of that total. Feel free to ask me what I learned about each of these eras thus far. I'm still reading.
    Edited by Phat, : refined focus

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2020 4:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 385 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 51 of 90 (883531)
    12-15-2020 11:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
    12-10-2020 5:32 PM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    Phat writes:
    Evidently you began to believe in something stronger than the Creator of all seen and unseen...
    No, it wasn't a matter of substituting one "something" for another. It was removing a worthless something, taking out the trash.
    Phat writes:
    Do you have any belief in such a Deity at all these days?
    No. But that isn't the same as believing one doesn't exist. It's the belief that doesn't exist.
    Phat writes:
    The Holy Spirit is preferable to the spirit of the age, which is chock full of information yet lacking in truth or love.
    Fundamentalist Christianity is much more lacking in truth and love.
    Phat writes:
    The mind will only transform through a transformative higher power.
    Nonsense. There is no "higher power". By their fruits ye shall know the people who think there is.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Phat, posted 12-10-2020 5:32 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 08-04-2023 8:00 AM ringo has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 52 of 90 (911947)
    08-04-2023 8:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
    12-15-2020 11:32 AM


    Church History In Plain Language (5th edition)
    Gosh I wish ringo was still around. I just read his last (and ongoing) replies to me in this topic.
    In the meanwhile, I have been reading the revised edition of this 596 page book. Bruce Shelleys son, Marshall Shelley, was the revision editor. There are some interesting observations of Christianity in the global South vs Christianity in North America.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-15-2020 11:32 AM ringo has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 53 of 90 (911948)
    08-04-2023 8:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
    12-08-2020 5:52 PM


    Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    Anglagard is another one I miss. The primary reason that I came back to this thread is because I have been listening to the revised book version on Audible. You and I might find an amicable argument discussion as we pause to honor two old friends...ringo and anglagard. Are you game? (edited in light of newfound respect and awareness of your inner pain)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2020 5:52 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 90 (911949)
    08-04-2023 8:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by dwise1
    12-10-2020 4:17 PM


    Church History In Plain Language (5th Edition)
    Phat, replying to jar writes:
    Do you honestly think and believe that an atheist/humanist could even understand the Bible?
    dwise1 writes:
    Yes, of course! And far better than most believers ever could. Because a believer would just repeat the fairy tales he had been raised on instead of digging into the actual history and investigating the external sources that the Bible had drawn on (eg, the Babylonian creation and flood myths, the Code of Hammurabi). Instead of seeking information and the truth, he would have a vested interest in supporting his fairy tales, just as creationists and Trump lemmings do.
    I'm inviting you to reconnect also.
    As for the sources, keep in mind that literally everyone has sources of information...more-so today than ever before in History. Biblical Creationists often limit their sources and never study the actual history of their religion. You are well aware of this! As far as Trump lemmings, that's a whole 'nother topic!
    dwise1 writes:
    For example, whom would you trust to give you a factual history of the founding of Mormonism? A non-Mormon scholar? Or a believing Mormon who would insist on the literal truth of the golden plates and Joseph Smith's ability to translate them through mystical means?
    For the record, I believe that Shelley and his son are both somewhat objective. They are no holy rollers!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2020 4:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 55 of 90 (911950)
    08-04-2023 8:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
    12-09-2020 5:17 PM


    The Brainwashing Of My Dad
    I watched that documentary, largely because I have come to trust your objectivity.
    Today's media is like navigating a minefield.
    I watch it all...and am limiting my conclusions while I gather more information.
    Your documentary link was in my opinion quite accurate. I have a friend who now gets angry about politics just as her Dad did. Food for thought.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2020 5:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 56 of 90 (911979)
    08-06-2023 9:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
    12-10-2020 3:58 PM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    AZ writes:
    There is no hidden supernatural force that can be shown to be transforming human minds into good little Christian Soldiers.
    I have an off-topic question for you. But first, let me just say that I had never really heard you open up about Viet Nam before. I cant imagine the psychological damage that that war (and any war, really) inflicted on you and my heart is slowly waking up to this chapetr from your past. I know that I invited you and Dwise1 back to this topic, but I think that there are some deep wounds regarding Church History in the context of wars in general and human belief that perhaps we could discuss. If you have taught me one thing recently(and I mean this in all seriousness) its that your reasons for being an anti theist...in light of what you know and have not shared with us yet about the psychology of war *does* very much stem from religion(belief and actions)of a nation and a people. I know that Candle2 claims to have suffered as a child and that God saved him, but I see his plight through your eyes. He was rescued by a reformed cult and has been thoroughly indoctrinated with easy answers which resonate with GDR. It took me a minute to see a glimpse into your "pedo-cult comment which "offended" GDR, but in my opinion your rant was not directed at him but at organized religion in general. I feel for you, AZ. You are an honorable man and what you have done and needed to do should never be looked down on by a nation whose God is intrinsically and intimately connected with the US Dollar.
    On a similar off topic note, do you think that the war in Ukraine is doing the same thing to the young Russians (and Ukrainians) that are fighting for ideologies which are far above their pay grades?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2020 3:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2023 4:14 PM Phat has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8452
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (3)
    Message 57 of 90 (911991)
    08-06-2023 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
    08-06-2023 9:59 AM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    Don't think of my experience as anything close to the physical and psychological damage suffered by so many. I was lucky and it was bad enough. Still, that's it for Nam. I'm done.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-06-2023 9:59 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 1:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 90 (912049)
    08-11-2023 1:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by AZPaul3
    08-06-2023 4:14 PM


    Back To Church History In A Moment
    OK, I'll respectfully steer clear of your personal observations of war. Just know that I care about your mental health as much as you care about mine. Im still puzzled why you are so up in arms about religion corrupting human values.
    After all, if you can wish away all of the gods including the Creator of all seen and unseen, can you as easily wish away the stars in the Heavens? Do you regret not being more of a pacifist or were you in fact one?
    One Epiphany which shook my faith was years ago in 2001. 9-11 had just happened and Dr.Charles Stanley had a sermon about when he was a little boy and saw the planes taking off to war in 1941. In essence, his sermon hinted that God favored a just war. We can ask if there is such a thing. If a foreign nation sunk one of the US aircraft carriers that we spent billions building and we lost the whole crew, would that justify going to war? Or do we simply let the aggressive ideology push its way through the culture we grew up in?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2023 4:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 3:14 AM Phat has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8452
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (1)
    Message 59 of 90 (912051)
    08-11-2023 3:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
    08-11-2023 1:15 AM


    Who Sank Your Aircraft Carrier?
    Im still puzzled why you are so up in arms about religion corrupting human values.
    History. The war history of religion is bad enough but another religious crime is the stunting, the suppression, indeed, the war against intellect and science by the priests to preserve their fantasies. I wonder what our species could have achieved with that additional 1000 years of religion-free philosophical and scientific enlightenment. What would a millennium of additional science tacked on to the present day look like? We will never know.
    After all, if you can wish away all of the gods including the Creator of all seen and unseen, can you as easily wish away the stars in the Heavens?
    No. The reality of stars just won’t wish-away like the gods do. Stars actually exist outside my mind and have independent corroboration from within yours.
    Do you regret not being more of a pacifist or were you in fact one?
    I am a humanist. I am not Amish.
    If a foreign nation sunk one of the US aircraft carriers that we spent billions building and we lost the whole crew, would that justify going to war?
    How do you so casually separate an action from a reason? Why did they sink your aircraft carrier? Was it someplace it shouldn’t have been? Interfering in something not it’s business? Was it killing people and needed to be stopped? Or was it trying to save people from the bad guys?
    Or do we simply let the aggressive ideology push its way through the culture we grew up in?
    The devil is in the details.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 1:15 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by Phat, posted 08-11-2023 4:38 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18157
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 90 (912052)
    08-11-2023 4:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by AZPaul3
    08-11-2023 3:14 AM


    Re: Who Sank Your Aircraft Carrier?
    AZ writes:
    How do you so casually separate an action from a reason? Why did they sink your aircraft carrier? Was it someplace it shouldn’t have been? Interfering in something not it’s business? Was it killing people and needed to be stopped? Or was it trying to save people from the bad guys?
    Lets take Taiwan, for example. My Carrier is involved in training drills with Japan and Taiwan. China claims the region yet the others also live there. The US has pledged to defend Taiwan. Is War justifiable if Taiwan is attacked? There are 300 million professing Christians in China. Is this war a religious thing if it occurs?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 08-11-2023 3:14 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2023 10:31 AM Phat has replied

      
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