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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1322 of 1444 (881896)
09-03-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1309 by Phat
09-02-2020 6:35 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:
...when a person gets saved...
I have asked you before, how can you be "saved" from something that hasn't happened yet? And what sense does it make to be "saved" BY the entity that you're being saved FROM? There's no logic to it.
Phat writes:
Ringo would claim that they likely would sit around braying Lord, Lord....but that implies that churches are full of posers trying simply to fit in and look spiritual to each other.
Not all posers. A lot of them are delusional.
Phat writes:
I argue, however, that it takes that inner awareness of the reality of His existence to even give me the desire to share this stuff with other....
That's not an argument, yada yada yada.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by Phat, posted 09-02-2020 6:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1323 of 1444 (881897)
09-03-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1313 by Phat
09-02-2020 8:25 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:
...ive likely done more of that stuff than you have.
As Jesus pointed out to the disciples, the lady who gave two mites gave more than the rich men who gave bags of gold - because she gave all she had.
Phat writes:
Ringo claims I dont do what Jesus says to do, but I fail to see where I fall short...perhaps you know.
See above. Jesus told the rich young ruler to "sell what you have and give to the poor" - not "sell a lot and give to the poor". It isn't how much you do that counts. It's how much you could do and don't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by Phat, posted 09-02-2020 8:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1324 of 1444 (881898)
09-03-2020 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
09-03-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Phat writes:
...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me?
Apparently it takes years and years of repetition to get through to you, so here goes, again: You can learn something from Frodo even if you don't believe The Lord of the Rings is true.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1332 of 1444 (882865)
10-22-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability?
But you're always saying that God doesn't want us to grow up.
Either we're responsible and God is irrelevant or God is responsible.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1334 of 1444 (882867)
10-22-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Phat
10-22-2020 12:22 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
You always make these blanket assumptions.
it's not an assumption. It's a conclusion.
Phat writes:
I've no problem with us being responsible but how on Gods green earth does this then make Him irrelevant?
The same way that the Pope is irrelevant to your decision on whom you vote for. If you're responsible, somebody else isn't. That's pretty simple.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1337 of 1444 (882870)
10-22-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1335 by Phat
10-22-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
... God cannot be judged irrelevant except by your uninformed choice.
The point is that if God is not responsible for YOUR choices, then He IS irrelevant TO your choices.
It doesn't matter whether He's human or not. It doesn't matter whether He exists or not. He can not be relevant to your choices unless He influences your choices.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1335 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1338 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 9:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1341 of 1444 (882881)
10-23-2020 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1338 by Phat
10-22-2020 9:08 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
We freely choose our choices and decisions, however. God does not control us like marionettes or zombies.
Well, if God is omniscient and He "advises" you on what to do, why would you not take His advice? And if He's feeding you the "right answers" how is He not responsible for you acting on them?
Phat writes:
You claim that the message should influence our choices and that it is an internal charge. Or at least you hold me to that standard while declaring that you owe no "God" anything. Am I not right?
The message supersedes any voices in your head. If any messenger denies the message or alters the message, shoot the messenger.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 9:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1342 by Phat, posted 10-23-2020 12:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1344 of 1444 (882884)
10-23-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1342 by Phat
10-23-2020 12:57 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:
You have argued before that the message is the sum of what He says to us...
I have argued that Jesus happened to understand the message - as many preachers, priests and prophets have done throughout history.
Phat writes:
...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had?
Ask the early Christians. Ask the disciples.
Phat writes:
Why on earth would I even be working...for everyone else?
That's what Jesus recommended.
Phat writes:
I dont take scripture to be an ongoing message for me on a daily and ongoing basis.
That's pretty clear. It's hard to understand why you pay any attention to scripture at all.
Phat writes:
I dont believe that everyone will be saved...
According to what Jesus said in the Bible, YOU won't be saved - so it's no surprise that you don't like what the Bible says.
Phat writes:
... and I dont believe that 100% of that responsibility is Gods.
I didn't say He was 100% responsible. I said He was more than 0% responsible. And if He is more than 0% responsible for bad things that happen, He can not be 100% good, as you fantasize.
Edited by ringo, : Soelling.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1342 by Phat, posted 10-23-2020 12:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1345 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:31 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1357 of 1444 (882899)
10-24-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1345 by Phat
10-24-2020 2:31 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
A message needs to be created/formed/defined by a human who speaks the language.
No, other social species understand the message too.
Phat writes:
Messages dont just appear out of thin air.
They're passed down in the DNA. Don't be fooled by the word "message". The message is just a formalization of what we all know to be true.
Phat writes:
...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had?
As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away?
Phat writes:
Lets say that next Tuesday in N.America, everyone who professed to be a true Christian was ordered by Rome and the WCC to give away all that they had.
I keep telling you, nobody is "ordering" you to do it. It's voluntary. Most professing Christians, including you, wouldn't do it.
Phat writes:
Now...who would they give it to?
Each other.
Phat writes:
You dont know the first thing about what Jesus would say to you or I today.
Sure I do. Why would the message change?
Phat writes:
All you do is quote a 1000 year old book.
You can spit on the Bible all you like but the fact is it's the only reference to Jesus that you have. Your "experiences" are worthless.
Phat writes:
Your argument is designed only to expose Christian hypocrasy. You have no other motive nor reason to make it except to explain why you stopped believing.
Nonsense. I don't have to explain anything. My motivation is truth.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
It's hard to understand why you pay any attention to scripture at all.
Well I know why YOU do it. It happens to support your favorite axion: From Each According To His Ability To Each According To His Need.
That isn't my favorite axiom - but it is an axiom. As I said, every social species understands it. It's only human greed that tries to deny it.
Phat writes:
According to what Jesus tells me, I am only to try and do my best every day and listen to His inner voice.
Jesus doesn't tell you anything. The voices in your head are manufactured by your own brain.
Phat writes:
I am in no way told that His message is limited to the book nor that He is only a character within that book.
The voices in your head are lying to you. The brain has a habit of doing that.
Phat writes:
And to whom is He responsible? If you say "to all of us" I will charge you with making up a God who is a product of your imagination.
I can guarantee that you will not back up that charge because you never do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1345 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1358 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1365 of 1444 (882947)
10-27-2020 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1358 by Phat
10-24-2020 2:05 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
I have yet to see *any* animal species give all that it has (or even some) to other members of its species apart from perhaps its own biological offspring.
Bees.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away?
Sorry to burst your Leftist bubble, but that will never happen.
But it DID happen, didn't it? Or is that another part of the Bilble that you throw away?
Phat writes:
Your Marxist fantasies fall on deaf ears.
Learn what Marxism is.
And it DOES happen today among the Hutterites, for example, as well as many monastic communities in several religions.
Phat writes:
So I'm supposed to give my house to others? Where then will I live?
There are houses now, aren't there? People will live in the houses.
Read the Book of Acts.
Phat writes:
Newsflash: Most people in general wouldnt do it.
Again, the message is for people who supposedly believe in Jesus.
Phat writes:
As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you".
He didn't say they would always be the same poor.
Phat writes:
Scripture says it better than I could:
Psalm 14:1 ESV--The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
You're the one who denies what Jesus said.
Phat writes:
And Jesus is no Marxist liberal.
The Jesus in the Bible most certainly WAS a liberal. The Jesus that you made up in your head is is a right-wing nut like you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 10:47 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1376 of 1444 (883194)
11-13-2020 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
11-07-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:
Zacheus gave half...voluntarily.
He also promised to make fourfold restitution to the people he had cheated. That accounts for the other half.
As I have tried to show you many times, it isn't how much you give that counts; it's how much you hold back.
Phat writes:
The Lord loves a cheerful giver.
He also kills tbe ones who hold back - e.g. Ananias and Sapphira.
Phat writes:
And about this idea that the poor are not always the same poor....how exactly does that work?
It ain't rocket science. A guy loses his job and he's poor for a while. Then he gets another job and something similar happens to somebody else.
What Jesus said is NOT an excuse to not help the poor.
Phat writes:
except metaphorically. And you argue that you are not expected to do so because you are not a believer. Some cop-out!
It's not a copout at all. Why would I follow the instructions of a fictional character? I help the poor because it's the right thing to do, not because somebody told me to.
And why would you, who thinks the character is real, NOT follow His instructions?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 10:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1377 by Phat, posted 11-14-2020 4:04 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1378 of 1444 (883219)
11-16-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1377 by Phat
11-14-2020 4:04 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:
My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give.
But they don't. They can't. They have no way of knowing what I give.
Phat writes:
"They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power.
It has nothing to do with "power". Why don't you listen to what I tell you about "my form of liberalism" instead of your right-wing propaganda?
Phat writes:
Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.
And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1377 by Phat, posted 11-14-2020 4:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1379 by Phat, posted 11-23-2020 1:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1380 of 1444 (883274)
11-25-2020 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by Phat
11-23-2020 1:56 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:
At least Republicans advocate voluntary giving to the charity of their choice....
And that has never worked. There are always poor people, as somebody once said.
Phat writes:
... rather than forcing the small business owning middle(working) class to cough up the money to help the poor.
How is that different from forcing the same middle/working class to help the military-industrial complex?
Every government collects taxes. I'm just advocating spending them on something useful.
Phat writes:
Why should I get penalized by some socialist ideology that since I have the "ability" to help others in need I should be mandatorily shoehorned into doing so?
The phrase "manditorily shoehorned" is your phrase. It's your bad attitude. I'm saying you should be glad to pay taxes for useful purposes.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.
Quite a claim coming from a guy who loves to quote what the book says yet does no0t believe in the God in the book.
For God's sake, stop using that stupid argument. I don't have to believe Frodo existed to know what the book says.
Phat writes:
If I give spare change it should be my decision rather than a tax law designed to make me give.
Why? Nothing else that your tax money is spent on is your decision.
As for your propaganda chart:
  • I do NOT advocate assets ownded by "government/cooperatives".
  • EVERYBODY advocates redistribution of income.
  • I do NOT advocate price controls.
  • I do NOT advocate "government-owned firms", PERIOD.
  • I do NOT advocate "high progressive taxes". I DO advocate higher spending on public services.
  • Healthcare provided by the government free at point of use is practically a worldwide standard. You would have to be insane to advocate healthcare for profit.
  • I do NOT advocate "state industry".
  • I DEFINITELY DO promote equality. And why should we not "attempt to overcome market failure"? We attempt to overcome every other problem, don't we?
    Why don't you pay attention to what I actually say instead of just parroting what your right-wing handlers tell you I think?

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1379 by Phat, posted 11-23-2020 1:56 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1381 by Phat, posted 11-25-2020 1:50 PM ringo has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1382 of 1444 (883303)
    11-26-2020 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1381 by Phat
    11-25-2020 1:50 PM


    Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
    Phat writes:
    What I dont promote is eliminating the middle working class...
    Neither do I.
    Phat writes:
    ... and "raise the tide" so that I make as much as you do.
    You already make more than I do. I'm advocating that the ones who make less than I do should make as much as I do because it's enough to survive on.
    Phat writes:
    If you want to make what I make you need to earn it.
    You know damn well that the masses clamoring for your job will earn the money just as much as you do.
    Phat writes:
    Not have it handed to you and all the other "spangers" hanging out at the library or local pub.
    It was Jesus who told you to help the poor.
    Phat writes:
    And if you come work at my store, you start out making ten bucks an hour pushing carts. You dont geet hired to run my cash register while I am forced to do harder labor simply because I make more due to having worked 30 years in the industry.
    Y'know, I wrote a fairly long post and this has nothing to do with anything I wrote. Why can't you discuss something honestly instead of just using me to bounce your rants off?

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1381 by Phat, posted 11-25-2020 1:50 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1383 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 9:48 AM ringo has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1384 of 1444 (883318)
    11-27-2020 11:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1383 by Phat
    11-27-2020 9:48 AM


    Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
    Phat writes:
    One fear that I have is the idea that I, as a working class American who barely has much savings apart from what I may inherit some day am expected to care for the poor impoverished masses globally.
    It's Jesus who expects you to care about the poor impoverished masses. Go ye into all the world.
    Phat writes:
    And I believe this is what the conservative agenda fears about globalism.
    What the conservative agenda fears is losing its own pile. It doesn't give a flying fuck about you. You're a dupe. As long as they can fool you into doing their bidding, they don't have to worry about YOU questioning their wealth.
    Phat writes:
    Again, that may work in Canada or the US and some Scandinavian countries, but is impractical as a globalist concept.
    Why? Instead of just parroting right-wing propaganda, why don't you THINK about it?
    Phat writes:
    You cannot tax your way to prosperity. There needs to be an engine to generate the wealth to begin with.
    That engine is the people.
    Phat writes:
    AOC has talked of a green new deal.
    What the hell is an AOC?
    Phat writes:
    Question is, who in the heck is expected to pay for this practical idea?
    See above. The people. Pay them more and they can pay more.
    Phat writes:
    Essentially it eliminates the road to getting wealthy.
    And that's a bad thing? Why?
    quote:
    Luke 18:24-25 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Since you are fond of the idea of people "choosing Hell", there's something close to confirmation for you: People who choose riches are choosing Hell.
    Phat writes:
    We are all stuck together as a mass of workers against the wealthy rather than aspiring to become comfortable ourselves.
    Becoming wealthy and becoming comfortable are vastly different things. I advocate that EVERYBODY should become comfortable.
    Phat writes:
    If I were as altruistic as you (and perhaps Jesus) suggest, I would never be able to acquire things for myself.
    The problem is that you can't be as wealthy as Trump without being as vicious as Trump.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1383 by Phat, posted 11-27-2020 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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