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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Free will is a rather slippery term with more than one meaning. The real question is to what extent God has predetermined our choices. If God has done that, then God has the primary responsibility even if we have some form of free will.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
PaulK writes: Agreed. jar has successfully argued that a God Who foreknowingly damns us is evil. I would argue that such type of predetermination is wrong. God does not determine our destiny. We do. God is only responsible in that He allowed two possible destinies. The real question is to what extent God has predetermined our choices.We have limited free will only in that we cannot freely choose a third destiny, for example. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
However, if God chooses to create a particular universe, knowing in advance everything that will happen in it (including all the choices made by the inhabitants) then God has predetermined everything that will happen in that universe. That is the essential point being argued.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK, but its a nonsensical argument to be made by us IF in fact we seek no relationship with this God. God is gonna do what He is goona do and we have no power to change it. If we in fact have free will (which one could argue is desireable) it wont happen automatically without encountering and relating to this God. I would argue that this reality alone is not irrelevant. Comments?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: No. But its different applying this argument to indict God. How so? Seemingly you have higher moral values than your god.
Perhaps He never should have created humans at all then....according to your logic. It's not MY logic Phat, it's just logic. That's the only moral position isn't it? If you do something with the certain knowledge that harm will come of it, you're doing something that is immoral.
OR more precisely he should have only created good humans. In which case one could argue that by allowing Satan to exist, God blew the whole deal BIG TIME Well sure, that's what you've heard me argue many times. What's more he actually KNEW he would blow it. Weird huh?
But should we hold the initial creator/inventor of guns responsible for all deaths made by guns? Well that's a difficult but human question. We can't seem to avoid inventing things that although we can't know specifically how they will lead to harm, we can know that harm must necessary follow. The nuclear bomb only had one purpose after all. Humans do this stuff because we're evolved apes that struggle to live with each other, but a God? No chance. You've proven to live on a higher moral plane than the god you worship.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: That is obviously wrong. Certainly we can look at theological beliefs and examine their implications, and if people are claiming that their theology is true it is something that should be done.
quote: What God actually does or does not do is not the point. The point is to examine the theology.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, other social species understand the message too.
A message needs to be created/formed/defined by a human who speaks the language. Phat writes:
They're passed down in the DNA. Don't be fooled by the word "message". The message is just a formalization of what we all know to be true.
Messages dont just appear out of thin air. Phat writes:
As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away?
...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had? Phat writes:
I keep telling you, nobody is "ordering" you to do it. It's voluntary. Most professing Christians, including you, wouldn't do it.
Lets say that next Tuesday in N.America, everyone who professed to be a true Christian was ordered by Rome and the WCC to give away all that they had. Phat writes:
Each other.
Now...who would they give it to? Phat writes:
Sure I do. Why would the message change?
You dont know the first thing about what Jesus would say to you or I today. Phat writes:
You can spit on the Bible all you like but the fact is it's the only reference to Jesus that you have. Your "experiences" are worthless.
All you do is quote a 1000 year old book. Phat writes:
Nonsense. I don't have to explain anything. My motivation is truth.
Your argument is designed only to expose Christian hypocrasy. You have no other motive nor reason to make it except to explain why you stopped believing. Phat writes:
That isn't my favorite axiom - but it is an axiom. As I said, every social species understands it. It's only human greed that tries to deny it.
ringo writes:
Well I know why YOU do it. It happens to support your favorite axion: From Each According To His Ability To Each According To His Need. It's hard to understand why you pay any attention to scripture at all. Phat writes:
Jesus doesn't tell you anything. The voices in your head are manufactured by your own brain.
According to what Jesus tells me, I am only to try and do my best every day and listen to His inner voice. Phat writes:
The voices in your head are lying to you. The brain has a habit of doing that.
I am in no way told that His message is limited to the book nor that He is only a character within that book. Phat writes:
I can guarantee that you will not back up that charge because you never do. And to whom is He responsible? If you say "to all of us" I will charge you with making up a God who is a product of your imagination."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
No, other social species understand the message too. I have yet to see *any* animal species give all that it has (or even some) to other members of its species apart from perhaps its own biological offspring. Perhaps, however, you could argue that beavers give to the natural ecosystem through instinct but thats all you really have. Quit making silly arguments which are irrelevant to human arguments.
They're passed down in the DNA. Don't be fooled by the word "message". The message is just a formalization of what we all know to be true. Truth through DNA? How convenient that it fits in with the lie you believe that no God is required. (regarding giving all that one has to "the cause") As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away? Sorry to burst your Leftist bubble, but that will never happen. So I'm supposed to give my house to others? Where then will I live? Oh...someone will give me another house, you say? Lets just skip a step. Ownership of private property is a right which I support.
I keep telling you, nobody is "ordering" you to do it. It's voluntary. Most professing Christians, including you, wouldn't do it. Newsflash: Most people in general wouldnt do it. Your Marxist fantasies fall on deaf ears. The global population will likely never be "equal" in terms of basic necessities for a long time. And I highly doubt that Jesus expects any different. Reality is what it is. As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you".
You can spit on the Bible all you like but the fact is it's the only reference to Jesus that you have. Your "experiences" are worthless. Actually it is you who have been internally lied to.Scripture says it better than I could: Psalm 14:1 ESV--The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. And Jesus is no Marxist liberal. (Granted He wouldnt approve of strict conservatism either)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 596 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
I did say the questions were rhetorical.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 596 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Libet's results only indicate that there is something in the human nervous system analogous to pipelining in computer design.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 596 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
About the same as any other theology.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
May She ever be there where you cannot see.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.pinkunicorn.net/vegnautic-scripture.htmlFactio Republicana delenda est.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 596 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
But we tend not to pay attention to that which wants to hide from us.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Phat writes: In other words, Paul is charging that God does not get to change His mind and play back the tape but that PaulK does hypothetically get to change his own mind and thus have a perfect free will which is unencumbered by God knowing the decisions after the fact. Does that make sense? No, it doesn't make sense. It's a playback of a recording.No one is "actually making any decisions at all." It's impossible for anyone (God or human) to "change their mind" during the playback because... it's just a playback. That's like contemplating "well, what if he wants to say other words?" during the 100,000'th copy made of an original Michael Jackson song. He can't change his words in the recording because it's a recording - there's no one actually "singing the song live" in the sense that they're choosing their words again. But PaulK usually has some sort of logical reasoning behind his issues.I doubt that he's concerned about "getting to change his own mind" - I assume he's fine understanding that this is a hypothetical situation we're talking about and isn't taking it personally. I just think I'm not explaining it right, or he's not understanding, or both.Which isn't an "I'm right and PaulK's wrong" or "PaulK's right and I'm wrong" kind of thing... just an issue with communication and language and understanding.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Bees.
I have yet to see *any* animal species give all that it has (or even some) to other members of its species apart from perhaps its own biological offspring. Phat writes:
But it DID happen, didn't it? Or is that another part of the Bilble that you throw away?
ringo writes:
Sorry to burst your Leftist bubble, but that will never happen. As I said, ask the disciples and the early church. They did it, didn't they? Or is hat another part of the Bible that you throw away? Phat writes:
Learn what Marxism is. Your Marxist fantasies fall on deaf ears. And it DOES happen today among the Hutterites, for example, as well as many monastic communities in several religions.
Phat writes:
There are houses now, aren't there? People will live in the houses. So I'm supposed to give my house to others? Where then will I live? Read the Book of Acts.
Phat writes:
Again, the message is for people who supposedly believe in Jesus.
Newsflash: Most people in general wouldnt do it. Phat writes:
He didn't say they would always be the same poor.
As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you". Phat writes:
You're the one who denies what Jesus said.
Scripture says it better than I could:Psalm 14:1 ESV--The fool says in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. Phat writes:
The Jesus in the Bible most certainly WAS a liberal. The Jesus that you made up in your head is is a right-wing nut like you. And Jesus is no Marxist liberal."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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