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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
OK lets have a look at it again. The GOATS:
It is only doing that has any value and the value is based in what is done, not why it was done or who it was done for or any of the other nonsense that the Apologist Shils market.Matt 25:41-46 NKJV writes: My point is that if the goats had never met Jesus, at worst they would be catering to favored people and not to the needy folks and would not even have a clue who Jesus was or who God was...they would simply find themselves at this judgement day and watch the sheep get blessed. 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh stop. I have fed and clothed people and do so to this day. I visited many in prison. My point is that I did favor the youth when I visited prisons....but I have also ministered to the least of these. You really need to get off your soapbox concerning the pathetic state of the CCoI. You have an irrational disgust regarding "them". I cant figure out if you are simply mad that they believe the way they do or whether you are disgusted that they dont feed anybody or visit prisoins, but you better back off of me...ive likely done more of that stuff than you have. And I'm not boasting....its simply what Ive done since becoming a Christian in 1993. It did take me a few years to actually feel the need to do anything, I will admit.
But im not looking to impress Jesus. I do what I do just because its what I feel needs doing. Ringo claims I dont do what Jesus says to do, but I fail to see where I fall short...perhaps you know."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You insist upon pushing your warped (critically thinking derived and void of any Godly inspiration) Theology upon the Forum, as usual. Before we go any further, however, lets return to the topic. I read an argument and a refutation of the argument regarding the nature of omniscience and free will.
quote:You will argue that if "the God" has foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely and thus ending up damned, then that God is evil and should be opposed. Am I correct or did I add to your argument? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So what if I end up being a goat? According to the scripture I get damned based on what I unwisely chose. Are you telling me that God does not see this as He is eternal and timeless? If "the God" having foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely still creates the human that thus ends up damned, then that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed. And when you say "that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed"I think in terms of Satan. God is good. Satan isn't. But what confuses me about your Theology is you and ringo insisting that the metaphorical snake told the truth. Everyone knows that satan has no truth in him. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually...in thinking about what you said, I can see a way to agree with you to a degree.
jar writes: The key concept that I see is the idea of creation ion general. God may well have created us in that He birthed us (through our family) but He is not responsible for our day to day creative thought. Thus, the idea that *we are responsible* leaps out at me. We become the decisions that we make. Thus, if God theoretically knew what I would choose He would also know on a day by day basis what I am choosing (day by day) and if I ended up damned it really would be His fault for not speaking to me in the still small voice which I believe He does have. God did not create me to fail. Thus, I can now see jars argument. (I think) If "the God" having foreknowledge that humans will end up choosing unwisely still creates the human that thus ends up damned, then that God is pure evil and must be condemned and opposed."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Some things take time. And I never learned it from you...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me? O Tangled one, perhaps we should go fishing.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: Why? Since when do humans demand that God be responsible when it is we who should be required to be responsible? And one would think that part of what our responsibility entails is to acknowledge that God is in a position over us and not something to be defined by us. It amazes me that some are oblivious to this position.
Remember, my position is that if God creates a universe, knowing everything that will happen in it, then God has primary responsibility for those events.PaulK resonding to Stile writes: Why must certain foreknowledge eliminate our responsibility? In theory, it should be irrelevant to us what God knows and doesn't know. We have no right to hold Him accountable--but only ourselves. Whether or not He smites us out of existence or not is beyond our control anyway and for us to hold Him accountable would only hypothetically be logical if we had a relationship with Him and knew our place rather than us arbitrarily setting the ground rules of the relationship. You are leaving out the whole question of certain foreknowledge, despite the fact that you intentionally introduced that element and in spite of the fact that it is an essential part of the assignment of responsibility. Indeed, we had already agreed that simple creation without understanding the consequences is different."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen then God is responsible for all that it created. I challenge thatg assumption. Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability? Is that Grandparent responsible for how their child raises their grandchildren? Why then must God be responsible for our behavior and our choices?
If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created. Foreknowledge is irrelevant. It is quite simply none of our business what God knows and when.
If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created and if anything created is then damned then that God is also evil and unworthy of anything but contempt. Perhaps in this case you have an argument. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Either we're responsible and God is irrelevant or God is responsible. You always make these blanket assumptions. I've no problem with us being responsible but how on Gods green earth does this then make Him irrelevant?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The same way that the Pope is irrelevant to your decision on whom you vote for. If you're responsible, somebody else isn't. That's pretty simple. Not really equivalent at all. The Pope is human. God isnt. Now it may well turn out that God is irrelevant or non existent but this is not conclusive and thus God cannot be judged irrelevant except by your uninformed choice."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK, I think I see your point. I would tweak it a bit, though.
The point is that if God is not responsible for YOUR choices, then He IS irrelevant TO your choices. So if I believe that He exists and that He is in Communion with me due to my having accepted Him, and if I then try and live my life as close as possible to reflecting what I would imagine His choices to be in my daily behavior, (spare change, doing good for whomever crosses my path, smiling more...impacting others lives in a positive fashion) then He is in a sense responsible for taking care of all of us and fulfilling His duties as a sovereign good God. We were taught that it is by Grace we are saved and not solely by works...in other words, we cant legally hold Him liable for saving us from eternal death. Our only job is to try and do our best as our own conscience dictates. We freely choose our choices and decisions, however. God does not control us like marionettes or zombies.
It doesn't matter whether He's human or not. It doesn't matter whether He exists or not. He can not be relevant to your choices unless He influences your choices. So in that context I agree. You claim that the message should influence our choices and that it is an internal charge. Or at least you hold me to that standard while declaring that you owe no "God" anything. Am I not right?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can they be responsible for the childs decisions? They would be responsible if they aborted the baby, however. Responsible for one death rather than many thousands, you might say.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Many of us do take His advice...on most things. As I drive to work, I often say a prayer regarding the day ahead of me. And as I drive by the "homeless tree" under which is always a panhandler or two, I often give to them...thopugh not every time and not every day. You have argued before that the message is the sum of what He says to us...but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had? Why on earth would I even be working...for everyone else? In that I was the provider for a whole street full of homeless people? I dont take scripture to be an ongoing message for me on a daily and ongoing basis. As I said, I dont give up my spare change every single day and especially if its the same guy (which it usually is) I dont donate a daily wage to him. But back to God: Well, if God is omniscient and He "advises" you on what to do, why would you not take His advice?And if He's feeding you the "right answers" how is He not responsible for you acting on them? If that were true, He would save everybody by default and be 100% responsible for our destiny. I dont believe that everyone will be saved and I dont believe that 100% of that responsibility is Gods. We too choose what we listen to and act upon, and thus we too are responsible."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: A message needs to be created/formed/defined by a human who speaks the language. Messages dont just appear out of thin air. I have argued that Jesus happened to understand the message - as many preachers, priests and prophets have done throughout history....but how on earth realistically could every Christian give away all that they had? ringo writes: Think this through. Lets say that next Tuesday in N.America, everyone who professed to be a true Christian was ordered by Rome and the WCC to give away all that they had. Now...who would they give it to? Rome? Their Pastor? The government? (Surely not! BIG Mistake!) There are no Apostles to whom we must lay it at their feet. Thus...the question remains. Who would get YOUR house, ringo? (Oh thats right...you are not a believer! You got outta that one!!
Ask the early Christians. Ask the disciples.ringo writes: You dont know the first thing about what Jesus would say to you or I today. All you do is quote a 1000 year old book. Your argument is designed only to expose Christian hypocrasy. You have no other motive nor reason to make it except to explain why you stopped believing.
That's what Jesus recommended.ringo writes: Well I know why YOU do it. It happens to support your favorite axion: From Each According To His Ability To Each According To His Need. It's hard to understand why you pay any attention to scripture at all.ringo writes: According to what Jesus tells me, I am only to try and do my best every day and listen to His inner voice. I am in no way told that His message is limited to the book nor that He is only a character within that book. According to what Jesus said in the Bible, YOU won't be saved - so it's no surprise that you don't like what the Bible says.... and I dont believe that 100% of that responsibility is Gods. ringo writes: And to whom is He responsible? If you say "to all of us" I will charge you with making up a God who is a product of your imagination.bThe One whom I imagine is all knowing and all powerful and has no obligation towards humanity beyond providing us with eternal life IF we try our best and believe that He is ultimately good and not a bad God in need of elimination from our collective consciousness. I didn't say He was 100% responsible. I said He was more than 0% responsible. And if He is more than 0% responsible for bad things that happen, He can not be 100% good, as you fantasize."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The reason that people challenge perfect foreknowledge is that it eliminates their right to freely choose a course of action (and able to change their mind in so doing) which thus negates Gods foreknowledge. In other words, Paul is charging that God does not get to change His mind and play back the tape but that PaulK does hypothetically get to change his own mind and thus have a perfect free will which is unencumberedby God knowing the decisions after the fact. Does that make sense?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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