Finding God In The Waves

This is actually a really good book. It is by Mike McHargue, better known as Science Mike.As I read it (on Kindle) I will share a few excerpts, though due to copyright software, Kindle never lets me cut and paste, even after I purchased the darn book! So I will retype the relevant quotes and share this gem with my loveable skeptics here at EvC. Stay tuned.

I am reading the book and likely will have little need to cut * paste apart from a brief quote here and there. And if need be, I will simply retype the paragraph.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Ironically, Mike McHargue thinks a lot like many of you.

What if I told you that he once was a believer in the traditional apologetic sense that our jar from Texas hates so much, became an atheist,(thinking very similar to you and Tangle, and ringo...with some similarities to jar and stile, though absolutely NO similarity to myself(obviously), then he became a Mystic and "found God in the Waves(An epiphany of feelings while on the beach one day(this from a science mind) and the journey in this book anyway ends by him becoming who he is now. He still thinks scientificallyu. He does not push beliefs, though he does not fight them as you seem to do.So, Mr. "YouCantTeachMeAnything", you seem as stubborn and entrenched as I am. But let me read the book before hitting you up with any quotes for comment.

First of all you have to stop hinting that you are smarter than they are. You likely aren't. I would go head to head in a general IQ test with most people on this Forum. Perhaps not Son Goku or a few of you, but by and large I have confidence that I could equal or best your scores yet simply because I choose to be a believer I am an outcast . I knew a lot of guys who completed college...something I never did. They had a lot of twenty dollar words and were intelligent in their chosen Majors and professions, but overall they had nothing on me. Just because I choose to believe in the supernatural (largely for my own reasons) is no reason to doubt my intelligence. The Gospel According To Stan Lee. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I dont think you understand. You claim that you were once a believer, after all....so what was it that you once "believed in"? Its NOT The Book. Its Jesus Christ. Jesus is as timely as todays news. He is not some ancient character limited to the Book. And I know you will patiently attempt to show me through logic, reason, and apparent reality that He is (and was) but I swear that you New Atheists can be every bit as fundamentalist, dogmatic, and stubborn as any "believer" ever was.I'm about done arguing around this place. Perhaps you all were meant to forevermore be unbelievers. Many of you joined jars little church of Logic, Reason, & Reality and kept your brains in full functional mode, partaking of Communion only with evidence and throwing any God characters whom interacted with you on a daily basis firmly and finally away. Maybe I will be better off limiting myself to an administrative role here, weeding out spammers and giving Moose and Percy a bit of a break.I have said before that EvC sharpens me, and I dont deny that it has. The faulty conclusion that many of you draw, however, is that *anyone* who honestly employs critical thinking skills will follow the conclusion that many (if not most) of you have followed. And I won't. It would be rude of me to throw away God as I know Him. And perhaps fatal.But lets get to the book, shall we? Edited by Phat, : fuller explanation of my stubborn and dogmatic way.

Its not the Good Book. It IS Mike McHargues Book. And its a darn good one. He is no slouch.

quote:

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I didn’t know this at the time, but all those hours I spent researching and analyzing God were beginning to rewire the neurological network that made up my faith. If we think back to our brains as a large business or political organization, all my reading and studying was causing layoffs in the offices and departments of those whose job it was to make me feel the presence of God. Every day, a few more employees were let go, resulting in more empty offices with the lights turned off. Before the president knew it, there was no one left in the entire organization helping me know God.

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And that's where belief comes in. You are so stuck in your thinking that you relegate God to a character in a book and then focus on the angry God, which you then dismissed conclusively. This book talks about all that.As ringo says based on his dimestore analysis from a quote on Amazon, McHargue did originally embrace Faith (faking it much of the way since he didnt allow his brain to be parked at the front door) primarily to get the girl...his future wife.

Don't be too quick to judge the author as "just another apologist". You can point out word salad where you see it, however. The author provides some core definitions which he presumably believes to be useful. (Taken from the Acknowledgments}

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FAITH is at least a way to contextualize the human need for spirituality and to find meaning in the face of mortality. Even if this is all faith is, spiritual practices can be beneficial to human cognition, emotions, and culture.

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GOD is at least the natural forces that created and sustain the universe as experienced via a psycho-social model in human brains that naturally emerges from innate biases. Even if that is a comprehensive definition of God, the pursuit of this personal, subjective experience can provide meaning, peace,and empathy for others.

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PRAYER is at least a form of meditation that encourages the development of healthy brain tissue, that reduces stress, and that can connect us to God. Even if that is a comprehensive definition of prayer, the health and psychological benefits of prayer justify the discipline.

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SIN is at least volitional action or inaction that violates human consent or produces human suffering. Sin comes from the divergent impulses between our lower and higher brain functions and our evolution-driven tendency to do things that serve ourselves and our tribe. Even if this is all sin is, it is destructive and threatens human flourishing.

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THE AFTERLIFE is at least the persistence of our physical matter in the ongoing life cycle on Earth, the memes we pass on to others, and our unique neurological signature in the brains of those who knew us. Even if this is all the afterlife is, the consequences of our actions persist beyond our death and our ethical considerations must include a time line beyond our death.

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There are five more which I might bring up later. Any word salad there, O Critic?

You guys love that word, don't you? Sometimes I feel as if though I myself have to represent my own argument rather than pointing to (or cutting & pasting from) other arguments, but what all of you need to understand is that I form my argument from words, phrases, and conceptual ideas. 90% of the time, these words and ideas are borrowed from others and tested within my own mind and heart before becoming adopted (or adapted) as my ideas. To me, my internal feelings, perceptions and intuition are evidence.
OK, here is an example from something I read from an as yet unknown author. Allow me to share:

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Why Isn't God More Obvious?

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Why is it that God does not seem to approach in a much more obvious way? One answer has been that God's existence is not a matter of reality and facts. Isn't it more of a faith position, anyway? Isn't it more about a leap in the dark than an embrace of evidence?

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I would agree that God isn't "forcefully obvious," but I don't think that this confines God to being a "take-it-or-leave-it" matter of faith. I think it makes more sense to see God as clearly visible, whilst not being forcefully obvious.

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Did you know that the Bible actually recognizes the validity of this question? First, we see passages that affirm the human perception that God seems hidden. In Job 23:8-9 we read,

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"But if I go to the east, he is not there; if I go to the west, I do not find him. When he is at work in the north, I do not see him; when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him."

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Interestingly, there are also many examples of God appearing as if veiled in darkness, whilst still simultaneously offering his presence.(1) For instance we read that, "The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was." Jesus, too, invites people to trust in him and then leaves and hides himself. In John we find the story of a paralytic man who is healed, but then Jesus slips away into the crowd. Luke records that as news about Jesus spread, "he often withdrew to lonely places." Later, Jesus tells the disciples that, "Before long, the world will not see me any more, but you will see me." Interestingly in many of these cases, God provides a clear sense of presence, while at the same time veiling the fullness of that presence.

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So perhaps an unavoidable part of the Bible's answer to why God seems hidden is because it's true. But why? And what about those times when we need a present God most, when God could offer us real hope in times of suffering?

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Well, when Jesus resisted the crowd, he concealed his identity until exactly the right moment in time to explicitly disclose it. This was a wise decision as the consequences of more explicit or obvious disclosure led fairly quickly to a successful campaign to have him executed. Could it be that God isn't unavoidably obvious, but clear in a more qualified sense? Crucially, there is also no reason why something of this nature might not require some learning to begin to perceive or see on our part.

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For example, imagine that I said that it is obvious, but not forcefully so, that you will need your passport to fly internationally. Now, notice carefully that you have to learn this bit of information. It is certainly not like a forcefully obvious brick wall that you cannot avoid. But it would still perhaps be a case of a failure to grasp the obvious if you arrived at the airport with your bags packed but without your passport. It's this second sense (of non-forceful obviousness or avoidable clarity) that the case for God can be confidently approached.

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But might this idea of God hiding merely provide a clever way for Christians to cling onto God in a scientific and evidence demanding age? This has been argued. Yet Christians do not claim that God doesn't show himself, but rather that God chooses the means of the showing. And hiddenness may well be necessary to bring focus to the way God declares his existence through Jesus Christ. In fact, divine hiding creates the possibility of a more obvious disclosure or uncovering.

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Atheist Bertrand Russell famously quipped that if he were faced with God when he died, he would demand an explanation for why God made the evidence of his existence so insufficient. We might be tempted to think he was being entirely reasonable. But perhaps the evidence we demand for God is directly related to who we think God is and what we think God's purposes are. Hiddenness would make no sense if God's aim was simply to relate to us as an object of knowledge that offered no real relational connection or friendship. If this was the divine purposethat we would simply acknowledge God's existencethen I am sympathetic to Russell's demand for more evidence.

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Have you ever thought about writing one? We did have EVC Forum: A Play by our late member Robin Rohan, but thats as close as we collectively got. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link

OK, the answer is no. But I wont let your word evidence frame this issue nor define this book (nor my worldview). You may then ask me why or you may already have drawn your conclusion based on your own methodology.

Mike McHargue did a talk at Google after he wrote this book. Its a long video, but feel free to skip around and tell me what you think.
After listening, I found his Q&A session very entertaining and discovered that he is not an evangelical in disguise. Listen between the 40 minute and 50 minute mark.Edited by Phat, : added the best timeframe to focus on. 40 minutes in.

Watch the video for ten minutes (between 40:00 and 50:00) and tell me what you think now. Im liking this guy more and more, though he probably would agree with jar more than he would with me.BTW ringo, I tried to find a transcript but there is none. Im working on it.

This is what I know! There never will be objective evidence. It simply never happens. Otherwise everyone would be\lieve based on the evidence found. For some reason I feel that it was never meant to be something that everyone would get.And evidence should not be a necessary standard. Science Mike says as much.He believes, evidently due to personal experience later validated by more personal experience. He never suggests that his personal experience should even be used as any sort of evidence nor persuasion for anybody else. And I thank you for doing that. We can agree to disagree and still have some great conversations around this place.

The evidence was given. The mistake many of you make is listening to doctrines of demones.(Mythicists who attempt to cast doubt on Jesus existence.

I think we all understand what "being a Fundy" means. It means a Biblical Literalist, among other things. MY God is Jesus Christ. I think He is more likely than most any other "god".Some reasons:

Changed Lives. It is well documented that many people changed or were changed because of Jesus influence in their lives. In addition, the behavior of the "bad" people was also well documented historically. What was it about early Christians,for instance, that was perceived as a threat, apart from refusing to bow to some egotistical Caesar?

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Why were Christians used as human candles and burned? What possible inner reason would the secular authorities---who were perceived as Deities themselves by the masses,have for this strong hatred of Christ, Christianity, and professing believers?

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Impact upon History. The fact that so many people throughout time have spent so much energy attempting to discredit and disprove Christian beliefs and dogma. Why the energy against? Do we see as much zeal aginst Buddhism? Judaism? Islam? Now I will grant that some Christians themselves oppose Islam, though by and large seem more favorable towards Judaism. Why is that?

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Finally....lets get back to McHargues book itself. And Science Mike in particular.

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AZPaul3 writes:

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Guess what? You have a handful++ "Science Mikes" right here in these forums that have been telling you for more than a decade quite the opposite.

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Why would you fall so hard for the former rather than the rest of us? We're not in it for the money. We're in it for the reality.

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Your Science Mike is wrong, Phat. Reality is all there can ever be and scientifically accepted evidence is its only key.

First of all, this "handful of Science Mikes" here at EvC all think differently.
jar is a believer.
ringo *used to be* a believer and now fancies himself a critical thinker.
As for you, I have no idea which pagan spirituality you dabbled with in Arizona, but you are clearly claiming to be an atheist...and a fundementalist atheist at that.
Tangle was raised catholic and mentions the bells and smells of his ritualistic youth. The only thing that you all have somewhat in common is your acceptence of *evidence* as your primary yardstick at measuring Logic, Reason, and Reality.

AZ writes:

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Your Science Mike is wrong, Phat.

And yet you have no clue what he says in the book. Your argument is really only centered on what I say about Science Mike and not on what Science Mike actually says. You are always so quick to prove your points and too quick to debunk mine.

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
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far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox

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The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy