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Author Topic:   3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 99 (882043)
09-09-2020 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-09-2020 12:03 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
You are not understanding the metaphor. Where is "home" to God?
I would say that it is everywhere. Thus metaphorically the only way that one could "leave home" is to deny the Spirit. Decide in their own mind and spirit that they desired to be autonomous---separate from Gods nagging still small voice.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 8:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 99 (882061)
09-09-2020 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
09-09-2020 8:42 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
The point is that Gods "home" is everywhere so we really never leave the nest unless we do so mentally. Which I would argue is UN-necessary.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-09-2020 8:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 09-10-2020 12:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 99 (882127)
09-12-2020 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
09-10-2020 12:08 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
*sigh*
God is not the same as your parents. Humans were never meant to be independent from God.
Through His own Grace, we were given the option, one which many of you eagerly accepted. You were tired of the yolk of organized religion, or you despised authority anyway. Its also why many of us leave home early. We wish to have the responsibility (and imagined freedom) to become our own authority.
You will claim that this is normal. That humans are meant to grow and renounce old unproven concepts such as gods and conservative governments.
I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 09-10-2020 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM Phat has replied
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 09-12-2020 9:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 99 (882134)
09-12-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-14-2020 8:53 AM


Re: A One & A Two & A Three
Name 5 worldviews that dont touch on one of those 3.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-14-2020 8:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 5:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 99 (882135)
09-12-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-12-2020 1:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
jar writes:
When you say "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." everyone in your secret club, your clique, your cult nods there heads as though that actually had some meaning beyond "stuff that makes members of your secret club, your clique, your cult nod their heads knowingly."
Granted, but I have a vocabulary and description based on my own inteect and experience. I do not yet speak the way that the "club" speaks.
And you also engage in Clubspeak.
The club has its hjighest regards for human wisdom. They honor Critical Thinking. They reject all supernatural unexplained phenomena.
Here is how their club speaks:
There is no way your personal experience can be evidence that can be tested or validated or reproduced or duplicated by all others.
Personal experience is evidence but evidence of little or no value beyond the individual involved where other evidence, evidence that can be tested and confirmed independently is of value beyond just the individual.(...)We use logic, reason and reality to test what is written.
Does a writing point to a model that is of use to all? Does it provide a moral guide to a functioning society? Does the writing teach us how to live today in harmony with other people, things and the environment itself?
You use Critical Thinking to dissect the Bible. You even use it to dissect God.
No one in your secret club, your clique, your cult ever questions what it means or tries to explain what it means or even thinks about what it means. The reality is that "I counter by saying that God exists, cares about all humans, and foreknows that Communion with Him is better for us than autonomy and freethought." actually only means "something that makes the members of my secret club, my clique, my cult nod their heads knowingly."
And what if knowing and accepting God was Gods desired goal for all of us? Your club would never agree enough to ever accept Him. You could only hope at best that He would accept you based on what you do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 5:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by FLRW, posted 09-13-2020 12:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 99 (882146)
09-13-2020 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-12-2020 1:53 PM


Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
jar writes:
Then you should be able to explain what the hell that even means, how "communion" with the supernatural is even possible and how it is better for us than autonomy, free thought and responsibility.
I notice that you added responsibility to my list. So no, I do not think that personal responsibility should be absolved.
You seem to have this idea that trusting God and His Spirit minimizes personal responsibility.
  • Though we cannot objectively *prove* the supernatural, it has been anecdotally reported by many Christians (and even in other religions, though I doubt its the Holy Spirit they experience) and has been personally experienced by myself. I dont just believe stuff because some preacher, prophet, or carny barker cons me into the product.
    As a matter of fact, my latest guy whom I trust, Isaiah Saldivar, is telling us again and again how demons are real, the supernatural is common, and that churches should be actively engaging it.
    Now I know for a fact that you would immediately call the guy out as a liar and conman. Though I have not met him personally, I have corresponded with him and am testing the spirit. In fact, I am willing to fast and pray and get ready for a deliverance myself. I will know if in fact the claim is real. You likely will say that I am simply drinking more of the kool-aid and am willingly allowing fantasy to become real to me and denying reality, but I am not a stupid man and I am honest with myself (and hopefully others) and will get to the bottom of this teaching once and for all.
    I may well find that I cannot honestly label anything as supernatural and, like you, must label it as unexplained. Or at worst, I may see that ones whom I trust turn out to actually be con men. But I have to see for myself. I'm not simply going to believe a critically thinking Socratic teacher who asks me to examine historical evidence. I will judge by the fruits of the deliverance, the changes I note in myself, and the peace that is in my mind and soul (or the anxiety and double mindedness, if that be the case)
    To put it simply, however, I believe as of today that communion (or encounters) with the supernatural are possible for several reasons.
    It is not something commonly seen in the global church though it happens in places where people are not materialistically comfortable as much.
    Edited by Phat, : spelling, punctuation, etc

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 78 by jar, posted 09-12-2020 1:53 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 2:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 91 of 99 (882149)
    09-13-2020 2:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 90 by jar
    09-13-2020 2:45 PM


    Re: What Is Comfortable vs What is True.
    jar writes:
    What do any of the things you mention have to do with anything but how you feel?
    And there you go again. You made the same argument about Saul being transformed into Paul. Paul was totally different than Saul. You minimize the event by claiming that he simply switched sides and was essentially the same person. You don't believe in the ability of God to transform anybody, do you?
    What the hell is spirit and just exactly how do you test spirit?
    You can really only test "spirit" through long term observation of behavior.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 2:45 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 92 by jar, posted 09-13-2020 3:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 95 of 99 (883912)
    01-17-2021 3:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by AnswersInGenitals
    07-13-2020 5:02 PM


    Re: Truth is in the mind
    I might add "I am NOT GOD."
    Potter was once a Buddhist. He evolved beyond Monism and Dualism and embraced Trinitarianism. (More specifically, Trinitarian Monotheism.)
    Ellis Potter writes:
    To understand Buddhism, it is important to understand the concept of Monism — one of the great ‘theories of everything’. Monism is not the same as monotheism. Monotheism is the belief in one God, but Monism is the belief in one One, a total unity that is the ground of everything. That is very different. If you believe in one God, then you have God and not God, but if you believe in one One, then you have only unity, or All is One.
    Though a monotheist, I believe in the battle between good and evil. Were there no battle, there would be calm and serenity in our minds and we would either be monists, (All inclusive one love no evil belief) like you guys are. You have no religion yet you can understand monism quite well...you simply call "it" reality.
    Potter writes:
    Monism is an ancient worldview. It probably came about when people looked around at the world and felt a strong sense of unity. There is one earth, one sky, one sun, one moon, one human race, one cycle of day and night, one cycle of four seasons. At the same time, people saw diversity. They saw differences. The unities they witnessed were stable and dependable, but the diversities they witnessed were unstable and undependable. Monism argues that the original perfection is a perfect, changeless, eternal unity. We suffer because we have forgotten this original unity and live in an illusion of diversity. This illusion may seem very real to us, but it’s an illusion nevertheless. According to Monism, the solution to suffering is to remember and realize the perfect unity again.
    All is One! is the bumper sticker of the New Age movement. It’s the great sound bite, the great evangelistic cry. All is One. If all is One, then you are God. You are the sun and the moon and the Milky Way and the whole universe. If all is One, then when you drink from a cup of water, you are God putting God into God. ‘All is One’ is so attractive because if everything is one, no one is going to disagree with anyone, no one will fight, no one will misunderstand, and no one will be lonely. All problems are solved if everything is one. You might sort of like this idea. If all is one, however, then you are me, and that might not be so attractive. If everything is one, relationships are evil because you only have relationships when you have the illusion of diversity. If everything is one, hatred is evil because hatred is a relationship, and love is also evil because love is a relationship.
    Some people are inclined to protest against this line of reasoning because they don’t want to give up the idea of love or relationship. But Monism is an absolute worldview that encompasses everything, and so you can’t pick and choose to keep some parts of reality diverse or separate. Everything is one. Nothing is left out, nothing is divided, and everything is absolutely unified.
    So here is a question for jar. Is Logic, Reason, and Reality three separate concepts?
    I will continue quoting Potter and then we will address the scriptures that the apologists claim speak directly about the Holy Spirit. We can hash it out there.
    By the way, I took these quotes of Ellis Potter from this article (since I am too lazy to type word for word quotes from the paperback copy of the book which I have and have read through once...I am rereading the book in light of jars challenge regarding Trinitarian Monotheism vs Monotheism (or perhaps in jars mind, Monism. Allah is a Monistic God. He had no son nor is he in communion with anybody)
    Potter writes:
    The idea that all is One has its roots in ancient versions of Monism. It is the foundation of Hinduism and Buddhism, the great monistic religions.
    jar has mentioned a time or two that GOD is complete encompassing both good and evil. He quotes Isaiah, but I suspect he has been influenced much more by comparative religions teaching as opposed to apologetic teaching which I grew up with.
    Potter writes:
    When a Christian tells Buddhists or Hindus that they need to be born again they will reply, ‘Oh, I knowand again and again!’ Being born again doesn’t sound like good news to a Buddhist or Hindu.
    We have discussed mainstream apologetic Christianity and you have rejected it as shallow, fantasy-based, and a copout.
    I do not see it as easy, but I do affirm a spiritual war of sorts....a dualistic yin/yang reality of good and evil. Potter explains how Monotheism, through Trinitarianism, eclipses the monistic (or strict monotheistic) views of Allah or of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and a human son sitting at His right side
    Potter writes:
    Christians have a different view — another theory of everything: Trinitarianism. They regard the original perfection, which is called God, as both perfectly unified and perfectly diversified.
    We see a clear description of this reality in the Bible. God is perfectly unified as one God, and yet God is perfectly diversified in the three persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is unity and diversity in absolute reality. There is not one God who chooses to reveal Himself in three ways in order to create the appearance of diversity, and there are not three persons who choose to unite and cooperate in order to create the appearance of being unified.
    Here is a proverb I made up to capture the essence of this reality: God alone is God, and God is not alone. You cannot make this statement about any other God or original perfection. You can say Buddha alone is Buddha, but that is all. The rest is silence. You can say Krishna alone is Krishna and Allah alone is Allah, but the rest again is silence. If the God of the Bible wants to talk to somebody, He talks among Himself, because He is three persons. A God who wasn’t diversified could not talk among Himself. He would have to create something else to talk with. He would require a creation in order to be personal, whereas the God of the Bible is intrinsically personal, independent of His creation. His creation does not complete Him but rather expresses Him.
    If the original perfection is both unified and diversified, it means that when we experience unity in reality it shouldn’t be a problem, and when we experience diversity in reality it shouldn’t be a problem. In other words, unlike Monism, Trinitarianism does not regard diversity as the cause of suffering, and does not see the solution to suffering as involving a detachment from diversity. The Christian sees variation and contrast as a part of the original perfection, and therefore, as a normal part of reality itself.
    The Bible’s depiction of absolute reality is a totally other-centered God. This other-centeredness is the source of God’s energy, for as each of the persons of God empties Himself once, He is filled twice by the others. This energy increases exponentially. It became so great that God could say Let there be light! and a universe was born. The Bible gives a name to this energy when it says God is love. It is an other-centered emptying and filling, a perpetual building up of energy. It is the energy of life. It is the foundation of all reality.
    Conclusion
    For Buddhists, the original perfection is a total perfect unity and we suffer because we have the illusion of diversity. Salvation is waking up and realizing that unity again. For Christians, the original perfection is a unity of three persons who are other-centered in a relational reality of love. We suffer because we have turned things around and have become self-centered dead people. Salvation is God coming into creation and giving Himself in order that people can receive the power to be re-created as other-centered living people.
    What do you think? Where are you?
    jar and I are discussing what (if anything) the Holy Spirit is over in Message 152

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killo
    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-13-2020 5:02 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 96 by PaulK, posted 01-17-2021 5:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 97 of 99 (908415)
    03-14-2023 2:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
    07-14-2020 2:44 AM


    Re: A One & A Two & A Three
    Phat:
    All Im arguing is that Ellis Potters argument is most certainly Christian, rational, and philosophically sound.
    PaulK writes:
    It is certainly neither rational nor philosophically sound. It looks like ignorant egotism to me.
    What chu talking bout, Wiillis? Kindly explain how Mr.Potter is ignorant? *grabs popcorn and starts munching*

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-14-2020 2:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 98 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2023 3:54 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 99 of 99 (908435)
    03-15-2023 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 98 by PaulK
    03-14-2023 3:54 PM


    Re: A One & A Two & A Three
    You and I are overdo for a good discussion! I remember when GDR challenged you in regard to physical materialism vs Spiritual stuff. IIRC, the basic question was whether the universe originated as strictly materialistic and passively deterministic or whether ther was a Creator/Spirit that initially formed the physical. In other words, was it Mind over Matter or was it Matter alone...evolving into life and thus the origin of mind...which came after matter. (Matter over Mind?)
    The joke goes: If you don't mind, it doesnt matter!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 98 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2023 3:54 PM PaulK has not replied

      
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