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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1126 of 1444 (881182)
08-19-2020 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1125 by Juvenissun
08-19-2020 7:19 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Yes I know what evil is. And I am not evil. And evil is a human construct and defined by social standards the vary from group to group and era to era.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 7:19 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1130 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 1:05 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1127 of 1444 (881187)
08-19-2020 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1124 by jar
08-18-2020 4:43 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
jar writes:
The evil is a god that creates someone or something that the god already knows is damned.
I think I get your point of view.
Keep in mind, however, that we are talking hypothetically and in no way realistically. We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know. Neither you nor I. And the fact of the matter is God Is how God Is. What we get is what we get. Of course you could argue that we have the duty to simply throw Him away, become accountable only to our charge and internal conscience, and do what we intuitively know we should be doing. Which would solve the problem of a potentially evil God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1124 by jar, posted 08-18-2020 4:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1128 by jar, posted 08-19-2020 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1129 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:33 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1128 of 1444 (881188)
08-19-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1127 by Phat
08-19-2020 10:08 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
Keep in mind, however, that we are talking hypothetically and in no way realistically. We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know. Neither you nor I. And the fact of the matter is God Is how God Is. What we get is what we get. Of course you could argue that we have the duty to simply throw Him away, become accountable only to our charge and internal conscience, and do what we intuitively know we should be doing. Which would solve the problem of a potentially evil God.
I am most definitely not speaking hypothetically and in every way realistically.
But the reality is that you and all the Apologists market a God that has foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that some people will get sent to hell.
That God the you and the Apologists market is vile, evil, unworthy of respect or worship and needs to be throw away or opposed.
Throw that God away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 10:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1129 of 1444 (881192)
08-19-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1127 by Phat
08-19-2020 10:08 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know.
If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 10:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1131 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 1:12 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1134 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 2:49 PM ringo has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1130 of 1444 (881194)
08-19-2020 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1126 by jar
08-19-2020 7:34 AM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Yes I know what evil is. And I am not evil. And evil is a human construct and defined by social standards the vary from group to group and era to era.
So according to what group God is evil and to what group God is not evil? Who can say god is absolutely evil on anything? You?
And, according to YOUR definition, I really think your definition of evil is probably wrong.
Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by jar, posted 08-19-2020 7:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1133 by jar, posted 08-19-2020 2:17 PM Juvenissun has replied
 Message 1135 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 2:54 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


(1)
Message 1131 of 1444 (881197)
08-19-2020 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1129 by ringo
08-19-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything.
That is very good. Do you want to serve a God who knows less than that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1129 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1132 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 1:18 PM Juvenissun has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1132 of 1444 (881198)
08-19-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1131 by Juvenissun
08-19-2020 1:12 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Juvenissun writes:
That is very good. Do you want to serve a God who knows less than that?
Ask Phat. He's the one who presumably thinks God is omniscient, yet is completely innocent about any decisions that we might make.
Myself, I don't see what serving somebody has to do with what they know or how much they know. We tend to serve our children and other loved ones based on criteria other than their knowledge.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 1:12 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 9:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1162 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:52 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1133 of 1444 (881199)
08-19-2020 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1130 by Juvenissun
08-19-2020 1:05 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Yes, according to the definition of evil that is common throughout modern civilization creating a living being knowing that being will be damned throughout eternity is evil.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 1:05 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1138 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 9:38 PM jar has replied
 Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:23 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1134 of 1444 (881200)
08-19-2020 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1129 by ringo
08-19-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
ringo writes:
If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything.
If He is omniscient, it is true that He knows. We dont know, however. He is not a subset of our minds. He exists apart from us....

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1129 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1137 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 8:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1135 of 1444 (881201)
08-19-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1130 by Juvenissun
08-19-2020 1:05 PM


GOD, God, and god
So according to what group God is evil and to what group God is not evil? Who can say god is absolutely evil on anything? You?
And, according to YOUR definition, I really think your definition of evil is probably wrong.
jars problem (in my opinion) is that he believes that evil is a human construct and while acknowledging that GOD exists, the God that we market is also entirely a human construct and that the actual Deity is forever unknowable while we are alive. Furthermore, jar believes that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is complete and not just "Good". You will have to ask him to elaborate on that.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 1:05 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1139 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 9:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 1136 of 1444 (881207)
08-19-2020 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1087 by Sarah Bellum
08-16-2020 6:02 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
What is free will anyway?
Well that does seem to be half the battle - Truly defining what we mean.
But most people have an albeit vague concept of freewill and science seems to suggest that this notion of freewill is something of an illusion.
This Wiki page covers a lot of it including the Libet experiment which I found a bit disturbing the first time I heard about it.
Link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-16-2020 6:02 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1360 by Sarah Bellum, posted 10-24-2020 6:18 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1137 of 1444 (881208)
08-19-2020 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Phat
08-19-2020 2:49 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Phat writes:
If He is omniscient, it is true that He knows. We dont know, however.
Are you saying we don't know whether He's omniscient or not?
Phat writes:
He is not a subset of our minds. He exists apart from us....
We don't know that either.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1138 of 1444 (881213)
08-19-2020 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1133 by jar
08-19-2020 2:17 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Yes, according to the definition of evil that is common throughout modern civilization creating a living being knowing that being will be damned throughout eternity is evil.
What do you mean by "damned"? Is this world damned NOW? If not, why are there any people lived in miserable conditions, even you have to work hard to earn a living? Is this world damned now?
If it is, then your "damned" conditions turned to be "normal" conditions. If so, where is the evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by jar, posted 08-19-2020 2:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1144 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 7:42 AM Juvenissun has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1139 of 1444 (881214)
08-19-2020 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Phat
08-19-2020 2:54 PM


Re: GOD, God, and god
jars problem (in my opinion) is that he believes that evil is a human construct and while acknowledging that GOD exists, the God that we market is also entirely a human construct and that the actual Deity is forever unknowable while we are alive. Furthermore, jar believes that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is complete and not just "Good". You will have to ask him to elaborate on that.
Many problems of unbelievers start right from the beginning:
they do not have an idea on what is God?
If God is evil, then that god is not god anymore. In order to say anything about God, God must not be evil to begin with.
In this case, the legitimate question to ask is: IF God is not evil, then why does God allow eternal suffering? Unbelievers has hard time to "ask" (not to answer) the question in a logically correct format.
Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Phat, posted 08-19-2020 2:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1140 of 1444 (881215)
08-19-2020 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1132 by ringo
08-19-2020 1:18 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
Ask Phat. He's the one who presumably thinks God is omniscient, yet is completely innocent about any decisions that we might make.
God must be omniscient. Otherwise, it is not a qualified god and is not God. You can not use free will issue to deny God. Because when you start to talk about this issue, you already assume God is omniscient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1132 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1146 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 9:02 AM Juvenissun has not replied

  
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