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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes I know what evil is. And I am not evil. And evil is a human construct and defined by social standards the vary from group to group and era to era.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I think I get your point of view. The evil is a god that creates someone or something that the god already knows is damned. Keep in mind, however, that we are talking hypothetically and in no way realistically. We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know. Neither you nor I. And the fact of the matter is God Is how God Is. What we get is what we get. Of course you could argue that we have the duty to simply throw Him away, become accountable only to our charge and internal conscience, and do what we intuitively know we should be doing. Which would solve the problem of a potentially evil God."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Keep in mind, however, that we are talking hypothetically and in no way realistically. We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know. Neither you nor I. And the fact of the matter is God Is how God Is. What we get is what we get. Of course you could argue that we have the duty to simply throw Him away, become accountable only to our charge and internal conscience, and do what we intuitively know we should be doing. Which would solve the problem of a potentially evil God. I am most definitely not speaking hypothetically and in every way realistically. But the reality is that you and all the Apologists market a God that has foreknowledge and is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that some people will get sent to hell. That God the you and the Apologists market is vile, evil, unworthy of respect or worship and needs to be throw away or opposed. Throw that God away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything. We have no idea what God knows, knew, or will know."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1308 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Yes I know what evil is. And I am not evil. And evil is a human construct and defined by social standards the vary from group to group and era to era. So according to what group God is evil and to what group God is not evil? Who can say god is absolutely evil on anything? You? And, according to YOUR definition, I really think your definition of evil is probably wrong. Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1308 days) Posts: 332 Joined:
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If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything. That is very good. Do you want to serve a God who knows less than that?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
Ask Phat. He's the one who presumably thinks God is omniscient, yet is completely innocent about any decisions that we might make. That is very good. Do you want to serve a God who knows less than that? Myself, I don't see what serving somebody has to do with what they know or how much they know. We tend to serve our children and other loved ones based on criteria other than their knowledge."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes, according to the definition of evil that is common throughout modern civilization creating a living being knowing that being will be damned throughout eternity is evil.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: If He is omniscient, it is true that He knows. We dont know, however. He is not a subset of our minds. He exists apart from us.... If He is omniscient, we know; He knows EVERYTHING - everything we know, everything every human being knows or knew or will ever know, everything that has happened or will happen, every decision that we will ever make. Everything."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So according to what group God is evil and to what group God is not evil? Who can say god is absolutely evil on anything? You? jars problem (in my opinion) is that he believes that evil is a human construct and while acknowledging that GOD exists, the God that we market is also entirely a human construct and that the actual Deity is forever unknowable while we are alive. Furthermore, jar believes that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is complete and not just "Good". You will have to ask him to elaborate on that. And, according to YOUR definition, I really think your definition of evil is probably wrong."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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What is free will anyway? Well that does seem to be half the battle - Truly defining what we mean. But most people have an albeit vague concept of freewill and science seems to suggest that this notion of freewill is something of an illusion. This Wiki page covers a lot of it including the Libet experiment which I found a bit disturbing the first time I heard about it.
Link
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are you saying we don't know whether He's omniscient or not?
If He is omniscient, it is true that He knows. We dont know, however. Phat writes:
We don't know that either. He is not a subset of our minds. He exists apart from us...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1308 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Yes, according to the definition of evil that is common throughout modern civilization creating a living being knowing that being will be damned throughout eternity is evil. What do you mean by "damned"? Is this world damned NOW? If not, why are there any people lived in miserable conditions, even you have to work hard to earn a living? Is this world damned now? If it is, then your "damned" conditions turned to be "normal" conditions. If so, where is the evil?
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1308 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
jars problem (in my opinion) is that he believes that evil is a human construct and while acknowledging that GOD exists, the God that we market is also entirely a human construct and that the actual Deity is forever unknowable while we are alive. Furthermore, jar believes that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen is complete and not just "Good". You will have to ask him to elaborate on that. Many problems of unbelievers start right from the beginning:they do not have an idea on what is God? If God is evil, then that god is not god anymore. In order to say anything about God, God must not be evil to begin with. In this case, the legitimate question to ask is: IF God is not evil, then why does God allow eternal suffering? Unbelievers has hard time to "ask" (not to answer) the question in a logically correct format. Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1308 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Ask Phat. He's the one who presumably thinks God is omniscient, yet is completely innocent about any decisions that we might make. God must be omniscient. Otherwise, it is not a qualified god and is not God. You can not use free will issue to deny God. Because when you start to talk about this issue, you already assume God is omniscient.
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