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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Is the god you worship and market the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? I would assume so, but have no way of knowing.
Does your god have foreknowledge? To be honest, I dont know that either."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What is the topic and what have you argued in this topic?
In Message 1062 did you say Phat writes: 2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1329 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
But suppose the super-smart being makes the prediction before the events happen? Suppose, a billion years ago, before any recording was made of any actions of any humans, the super-smart being could look at the trajectory of every atom in the universe and predict what was going to happen? If the super-smart being could do this before the evolution of humans, then how could it be said the humans had free will and were not just following a mechanical trajectory like the planets in their orbits? In between state A and state B, there could be infinite amount of routes. That where the freedom is.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 617 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Speculation as to the existence of a deity is not really the point here. If we take the deterministic view, that the trajectories of particles are (in principle) predictable because they follow physical laws, then we reach the conclusion that there is no "free will" because our actions are as determined as the motions of the Moon in its orbit.
But still, it feels as if we have choices; both believers and non-believers can agree on that. So how do we decide? Is it even possible to decide?
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 617 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Not according to our (alleged) super-smart being. There is only one route. The motions of the atoms in our bodies should be just as predictable to the super-smart being as the motion of the Moon in its orbit is predictable to us.
But we feel as if we have free will. How do we resolve this?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We can decide how to behave. We may not be able to decide our ultimate destiny though I believe that our behavior should somehow correlate with that. Note again what the Son of Man says to the sheep:
Matt 25:31-33 writes: So we can first ask the question of when the goat/sheep separation occurs. Does it only occur after humans have lived their life and chose their daily behavior? 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.After all, we know that the Son Of Man is eternal....thus He could hypothetically do the separating on Day 1 of the existence of humans. But note:
Matt 25:34-36 writes: 4 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Could it be that all of the people...both sheep and goats alike...had a kingdom prepared for them since the creation of the world? And if so, did the goats actually doom themselves due to their behavior within their lives?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes. That is what I said. [qs=Phat]1) God knows who the sheep are and who the goats are. They themselves do not know to which group they belong.
2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life. One cannot say that they didn't know what to do. We become the decisions we make. We are not mindless zombies living out a pre-planned script. We ourselves are writing the script as we live day by day. Whether God sees the finished script before we write it out in time, we are still the ones doing the choosing. Note how he says to the sheep, \[b\]Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.[/b] Does that mean that the sheep were foreknown to be sheep without the responsibility of their choosing their actions?[/qs] I elaborate further in Message 1071 You have to understand that I am thinking on the fly. All of my beliefs are subjhect to change...though they rarely do. I am in a particularly sensitive mood this morning after reading the late Ed Braytons last Column. It got me thinking about sheep and goats and how they are determined.
Ed Braytons Eulogy & Reflections About Purpose"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 617 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Why do you believe we can decide? I know it says in your scripture that we can, but can you give a reason that will convince those of other religions (or of none at all)?
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You still don't seem to understand the issue is not with human behavior but rather the God character's behavior.
If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect. You simply cannot have it any other way. The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I still dont get it. Lets get back to the dogma that is Lucifer/Satan. I know you think its silly, but it explains a lot...if in fact it happened anywhere near what humans believe. If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect. You simply cannot have it any other way. The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market. Did God initially create evil directly or potentially? Did Lucifer Rebel? Is God evil for sending Satan away from Heaven? We have not even gotten to the human part of the equation yet. Add: And since I know that you wont answer any of those questions, let me ask you ones which you might have at least a guess as to how to answer. Does God separate the sheep from the goats only after they have lived out their lives? If God existeed outside of time itself and was present when the human was born, at all points during their life, and at judgement after they died, would it matter whether God foreknew who would be on His right and who would be on His left? And if so, would God by delaying the separating until after the humans had chosen theior lifetime behaviors,cease being evil? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can you say it explains a lot when it's the very thing that's confusing you? I still dont get it. Lets get back to the dogma that is Lucifer/Satan. I know you think its silly, but it explains a lot..."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have no problem understanding/describing my dogma. It is you who have problems accepting the plausibility. Yet you would believe a physicist who claimed that the universe could and will create itself from nothing.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you had no problem understanding your dogma, you could explain it instead of just ignoring the objections.
I have no problem understanding/describing my dogma. It is you who have problems accepting the plausibility. Phat writes:
Why is that less plausible than a creator that could create itself from nothing? Yet you would believe a physicist who claimed that the universe could and will create itself from nothing."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why is that less plausible than a creator that could create itself from nothing? Because God never created Himself."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yawn.
Stop looking for silly stupid stuff. None of the silly stuff you posted is anything but more palm the pea. It really is simple. If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect. You simply cannot have it any other way. The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market. Nothing matters in this issue but what god does.
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