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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1066 of 1444 (880989)
08-16-2020 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1065 by jar
08-15-2020 5:12 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Is the god you worship and market the creator of all that is, seen and unseen?
I would assume so, but have no way of knowing.
Does your god have foreknowledge?
To be honest, I dont know that either.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by jar, posted 08-15-2020 5:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 7:20 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1067 of 1444 (880993)
08-16-2020 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1066 by Phat
08-16-2020 1:37 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
What is the topic and what have you argued in this topic?
In Message 1062 did you say
Phat writes:
2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 1:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 11:20 AM jar has replied

  
Juvenissun
Member (Idle past 1329 days)
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020


Message 1068 of 1444 (880995)
08-16-2020 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Sarah Bellum
08-15-2020 10:06 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
But suppose the super-smart being makes the prediction before the events happen? Suppose, a billion years ago, before any recording was made of any actions of any humans, the super-smart being could look at the trajectory of every atom in the universe and predict what was going to happen?
If the super-smart being could do this before the evolution of humans, then how could it be said the humans had free will and were not just following a mechanical trajectory like the planets in their orbits?
In between state A and state B, there could be infinite amount of routes. That where the freedom is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-15-2020 10:06 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-16-2020 10:59 AM Juvenissun has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 617 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1069 of 1444 (881001)
08-16-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by Phat
08-15-2020 3:18 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Speculation as to the existence of a deity is not really the point here. If we take the deterministic view, that the trajectories of particles are (in principle) predictable because they follow physical laws, then we reach the conclusion that there is no "free will" because our actions are as determined as the motions of the Moon in its orbit.
But still, it feels as if we have choices; both believers and non-believers can agree on that.
So how do we decide? Is it even possible to decide?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by Phat, posted 08-15-2020 3:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 11:03 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 617 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1070 of 1444 (881004)
08-16-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1068 by Juvenissun
08-16-2020 7:37 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Not according to our (alleged) super-smart being. There is only one route. The motions of the atoms in our bodies should be just as predictable to the super-smart being as the motion of the Moon in its orbit is predictable to us.
But we feel as if we have free will. How do we resolve this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1068 by Juvenissun, posted 08-16-2020 7:37 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by Juvenissun, posted 08-16-2020 3:57 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1071 of 1444 (881005)
08-16-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Sarah Bellum
08-16-2020 10:45 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
We can decide how to behave. We may not be able to decide our ultimate destiny though I believe that our behavior should somehow correlate with that. Note again what the Son of Man says to the sheep:
Matt 25:31-33 writes:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
So we can first ask the question of when the goat/sheep separation occurs. Does it only occur after humans have lived their life and chose their daily behavior?
After all, we know that the Son Of Man is eternal....thus He could hypothetically do the separating on Day 1 of the existence of humans.
But note:
Matt 25:34-36 writes:
4 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Could it be that all of the people...both sheep and goats alike...had a kingdom prepared for them since the creation of the world? And if so, did the goats actually doom themselves due to their behavior within their lives?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-16-2020 10:45 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-16-2020 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1072 of 1444 (881006)
08-16-2020 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1067 by jar
08-16-2020 7:20 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Yes. That is what I said. [qs=Phat]1) God knows who the sheep are and who the goats are. They themselves do not know to which group they belong.
2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life.
One cannot say that they didn't know what to do. We become the decisions we make.
We are not mindless zombies living out a pre-planned script. We ourselves are writing the script as we live day by day. Whether God sees the finished script before we write it out in time, we are still the ones doing the choosing.
Note how he says to the sheep, \[b\]Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.[/b] Does that mean that the sheep were foreknown to be sheep without the responsibility of their choosing their actions?[/qs]
I elaborate further in Message 1071
You have to understand that I am thinking on the fly. All of my beliefs are subjhect to change...though they rarely do. I am in a particularly sensitive mood this morning after reading the late Ed Braytons last Column. It got me thinking about sheep and goats and how they are determined.
Ed Braytons Eulogy & Reflections About Purpose

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 7:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 12:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 617 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1073 of 1444 (881007)
08-16-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1071 by Phat
08-16-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Why do you believe we can decide? I know it says in your scripture that we can, but can you give a reason that will convince those of other religions (or of none at all)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1074 of 1444 (881008)
08-16-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by Phat
08-16-2020 11:20 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
You still don't seem to understand the issue is not with human behavior but rather the God character's behavior.
If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect.
You simply cannot have it any other way.
The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 11:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 2:32 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1075 of 1444 (881012)
08-16-2020 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1074 by jar
08-16-2020 12:15 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
jar writes:
If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect.
You simply cannot have it any other way.
The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market.
I still dont get it. Lets get back to the dogma that is Lucifer/Satan. I know you think its silly, but it explains a lot...if in fact it happened anywhere near what humans believe.
Did God initially create evil directly or potentially?
Did Lucifer Rebel?
Is God evil for sending Satan away from Heaven?
We have not even gotten to the human part of the equation yet.
Add: And since I know that you wont answer any of those questions, let me ask you ones which you might have at least a guess as to how to answer.
Does God separate the sheep from the goats only after they have lived out their lives?
If God existeed outside of time itself and was present when the human was born, at all points during their life, and at judgement after they died, would it matter whether God foreknew who would be on His right and who would be on His left?
And if so, would God by delaying the separating until after the humans had chosen theior lifetime behaviors,cease being evil?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 12:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:13 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1080 by jar, posted 08-16-2020 3:41 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1076 of 1444 (881014)
08-16-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1075 by Phat
08-16-2020 2:32 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
I still dont get it. Lets get back to the dogma that is Lucifer/Satan. I know you think its silly, but it explains a lot...
How can you say it explains a lot when it's the very thing that's confusing you?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 3:16 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1077 of 1444 (881016)
08-16-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1076 by ringo
08-16-2020 3:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
I have no problem understanding/describing my dogma. It is you who have problems accepting the plausibility. Yet you would believe a physicist who claimed that the universe could and will create itself from nothing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1076 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:23 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1078 of 1444 (881018)
08-16-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Phat
08-16-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
I have no problem understanding/describing my dogma. It is you who have problems accepting the plausibility.
If you had no problem understanding your dogma, you could explain it instead of just ignoring the objections.
Phat writes:
Yet you would believe a physicist who claimed that the universe could and will create itself from nothing.
Why is that less plausible than a creator that could create itself from nothing?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 3:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1079 of 1444 (881020)
08-16-2020 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1078 by ringo
08-16-2020 3:23 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Why is that less plausible than a creator that could create itself from nothing?
Because God never created Himself.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by ringo, posted 08-16-2020 3:44 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1080 of 1444 (881022)
08-16-2020 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1075 by Phat
08-16-2020 2:32 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Yawn.
Stop looking for silly stupid stuff.
None of the silly stuff you posted is anything but more palm the pea.
It really is simple.
If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect.
You simply cannot have it any other way.
The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market.
Nothing matters in this issue but what god does.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by Juvenissun, posted 08-16-2020 4:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 1089 by Phat, posted 08-16-2020 8:58 PM jar has replied
 Message 1387 by Phat, posted 05-01-2021 1:16 PM jar has replied

  
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