Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 454 of 1864 (880591)
08-07-2020 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Juvenissun
08-07-2020 2:16 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:
But in this Trinity issue, the question is NOT if God exists, but is "Is God one or three"?.
To me, the question is whether or not the Bible supports the Trinity. I don't have to believe in Frodo to figure how far it was from Rivendell to Mordor according to the story. And I don't have to believe in God to know what the Bible stories say either.
Juvenissun writes:
If you say: God does not exist. Then you can leave this thread alone.
You don't get to tell me which threads to leave alone.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Juvenissun, posted 08-07-2020 2:16 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Juvenissun, posted 08-08-2020 9:17 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 455 of 1864 (880593)
08-07-2020 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Phat
08-07-2020 4:09 PM


Re: Sizing Up Deities
Phat writes:
To assert that the snake tells the truth throws a whole plot twist into the definition of the character.
But that so-called "definition of the character" is a lie.
Phat writes:
One problem, however, is if God Himself is a fictional entity there is no absolute truth nor is any Deity any holier than any other.
On the contrary, ONLY a fictional character could have absolute truth and ONLY a fictional character could be holier than all others.
Phat writes:
Relativism is a plot of Satan.
There is no Satan. Relativism is reality.
Phat writes:
You cant have a heaven full of independent thinkers when it comes to who is in charge...
And yet, that is exactly what the Bible suggests. See the story of the prodigal son. Unconditional acceptance.
Phat writes:
... or who is truth personified.
That's just another bumper sticker.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Phat, posted 10-15-2022 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 456 of 1864 (880595)
08-07-2020 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Phat
08-07-2020 4:18 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
What color is the sky in YOUR world?
I live in The Land of Living Skies. It says so right on our license plates.
Phat writes:
So what do you do if God is reality and yet is by nature UN evidenced to some?
Unevidenced to EVERYBODY. You've said so yourself.
I'd do the same thing you would do if leprechauns were reality and yet hiding from us.
Phat writes:
I am talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen.
No you're not. You're talking about a god made up by apologists. The god you talk about is consistently puny.
Phat writes:
Apart from whining about no evidence, do you have any other reason to prefer chemicals as the beginning of everything we know?
It isn't about preference. It's about what we do know versus what we don't know. We know about chemicals, so we can hope to understand how chemicals make up the universe.
Phat writes:
And where did they come from?
That's a much bigger problem for your god scenario. Where did he come from?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Phat, posted 08-07-2020 4:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 08-08-2020 3:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 460 of 1864 (880628)
08-08-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Juvenissun
08-08-2020 9:17 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:
Jesus says: My Father and I are one.
What does that say to you about the Trinity?
For one thing, it says two, not three - it may be support for a Binity.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Juvenissun, posted 08-08-2020 9:17 AM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 08-08-2020 3:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 463 by Juvenissun, posted 08-08-2020 7:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 464 of 1864 (880642)
08-08-2020 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
08-08-2020 3:10 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
In order for ringo to win the argument, he must convince all of us to take the book as written, throw any God (or Jesus) character away in our mind and that the message is the important feature of the book rather than the messenger, who I would argue was and is Jesus Christ.
Not at all. In order to "win", all I have to do is tell the truth and point out that you and the apologists are not.
Phat writes:
He cant seem to grasp the idea that only some people (whosoever has an ear to hear) will grasp the spirit behind the message.
You can't seem to grasp that YOU are living proof that belivevers do NOT have a "special" understanding.
Phat writes:
... he charges all of the apologists of lying for an ulterior motive and planned agenda.
And you consistently refuse to defend the apologists' lies. Why is that?
Phat writes:
One question is why on earth ringo was at one time a believer and changed his mind.
Why on earth do many children believe in Santa Claus and then change their minds? Same answer.
Phat writes:
Leprechauns are in no way the same thing.
They are in every way the same thing.
Phat writes:
They are at best myths made up by a minority culture within Ireland. They are cultural (and local) myths.
So is your God. Have you forgotten how many different gods there are?
Phat writes:
Nobody claims that Leprechauns changed their life...
The claim that God has changed your life is a false claim.
Phat writes:
I suspect you think He is too right wing.
The god made up by your right-wing cult is understandably right-wing. You want divine confirmation of your political beliefs.
But the Jesus in the Bible was, in your own words, an "extreme socialist".

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 08-08-2020 3:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 465 of 1864 (880643)
08-08-2020 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Phat
08-08-2020 3:14 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
The third member is what makes believers unique from non believers.
I was responding to a supposed Bible reference to the Trinity by pointing out that that reference doesn't mention a "third member" at all.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 08-08-2020 3:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 466 of 1864 (880645)
08-08-2020 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Juvenissun
08-08-2020 7:30 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:
If A=B and B=C, would you agree that A=B=C?
That doesn't help the case for the Trinity. A, B and C are all separate entities. You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=3.
Juvenissun writes:
Deity usually has "spirit" which is another form of the deity who can reach out. Right?
No. Of course not. "Spirit" is an aspect of deity, not a separate deity.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Juvenissun, posted 08-08-2020 7:30 PM Juvenissun has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 470 of 1864 (880696)
08-09-2020 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by Juvenissun
08-09-2020 9:34 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Juvenissun writes:
the Bible says:
Jesus IS God; and
Spirit IS God.
You're going to have to start providing specific references so we can see if your reading is accurate.
Juvenissun writes:
Whether this means one or three, it does not matter.
Of course it matters. It's the difference between unity, binity and trinity. If you say Spot is a dog and Spot is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Or if you say Spot is brown and Rover is brown, you're not talking about three entities. Nor are you talking about one entity. So it is VERY important to read it exactly as written.
(By the way, I messed up the math in my previous message. It should have said, "You're trying to prove that 1+1+1=1.")
Juvenissun writes:
"When you see God, you are not really seeing God, but seeing the spirit of God." Does this statement make sense?
No.
Juvenissun writes:
Spirit is not an aspect (part) of God. Spirit and God are separable. That is why the Spirit is needed. Otherwise, God does not need Spirit.
What scripture are those statements based on?
Juvenissun writes:
Anyway, you want to see what the Bible says. And that is what the Bible says.
You're going to have to cite chapter and verse.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Juvenissun, posted 08-09-2020 9:34 AM Juvenissun has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 479 of 1864 (887013)
06-28-2021 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
06-28-2021 12:51 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
What you miss is the individual awareness that Jesus has for each of us.
That's funny, coming from you.
Phat writes:
To Jesus, GOD was not Loki. Or Allah. Or a Flippin spaghetti monster. GOD was (and is )His Father. He even said that "I and my Father are one." No other person has ever claimed as intimate of a relationship with a Creator nor have many even understood the uniqueness of a Creator of all seen and unseen vs a local mythos or legend.
Speaking of awareness.
Every false Messiah makes the same claim, and a lot of evangelist too.
Phat writes:
As a teacher, He taught that intimacy with GOD, (Creator of all) was possible.
It would be handy if you gave some examples of that. Offhand, my impression is that He taught about our obligations to each other.
Phat writes:
He also mentioned to His Disciples that He must go (from this realm...this life) and that they would never be alone as they would have the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter with them always.
i.e. the message.
Phat writes:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people are so dense and clueless regarding the idea that 1+1+1=1. Ringo the Father, Ringo the internet friend/critic/fellow poster, Ringo the husband (if he ever married), and/or ringgo the friend closer than a brother are all aspects of one person. One character. Not 3 or 4 or 7.
Duh. The reason we are baffled is because trinitarians constantly argue that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOT "just different aspects" of the same entity.
And AGAIN, you didn't answer the question that you quoted:
quote:
Why would different people have different standards for salvation? If one person MUST give up all of his possessions to be saved, how can anybody else do less?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 480 of 1864 (887014)
06-28-2021 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Phat
06-28-2021 12:58 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
When Jesus tells you that He must leave yet will send the comforter, He is fulfilling the promise that He will never leave you(us) nor forsake you(us). The 3=1.
But He hasn't sent any comforter. So far, 3=0.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Phat, posted 06-28-2021 12:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Phat, posted 06-29-2021 3:35 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 482 of 1864 (887024)
06-29-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Phat
06-29-2021 3:35 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
But He hasn't sent any comforter.
Sez you.
And you. You seem to be far from comfortable.
Phat writes:
Many say otherwise.
And many say St. Anthony comforts them. Anybody can say it.
Phat writes:
And surely you can't expect scientists to be able to go up to such a critter and slap a meter or measuring device on it.
Why the hell not? It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected".
I could tell you that I have a million dollars in cash on my coffee table but you can't see it because it's specially made to be invisible to make it harder to steal. You wouldn't believe me, would you? You'd say you couldn't see it because it wasn't there.
Phat writes:
At best you could claim such a phenom to be a product of collective imagination...
That's one of several possible explanations. It's certainly a better explanation than "he's real".
Phat writes:
... but to those who believe, the Holy Spirit serves His purpose.
Nobody's denying that. But to those who believe in Allah, he also serves his purpose. And to those who believe in every other god, they also serve their purposes. They're all the same.
Phat writes:
In fact, that is how people become believers.
More often than not, people "become" believers because they were taught from birth to be believers.
Phat writes:
We believe, He responds, we receive.
Bullshit. A Muslim would say the same thing. Different gods, same "explanations'.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Phat, posted 06-29-2021 3:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 486 of 1864 (887079)
07-07-2021 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Phat
07-07-2021 10:09 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
You know, Ringo I can almost foresee how your response to this post will play out.
Well, you've been extremely bad at that in the past. You predict something, I explain how you're wrong and then you make the same prediction as if I had never said anything.
Phat writes:
You claim to have "once been a believer" but I don't believe that you ever thought the way that believers think.
See? There you go. You don't pay any attention to what I actually say. You believe what you want to believe, with no reference to reality.
Phat writes:
You have been a skeptic from day 1.
And As I keep telling you, that's a good thing. Anybody who is not a skeptic is liable to become a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Mormon, just because that's what he was always told.
Phat writes:
One big clue is how you argue the illogic of the 1+1+1 argument. To believers, it is patently obvious.
That isn't true. Not all believers are Trinitarians - and not all Trinitarians would agree with your simple-minded "explanation"..
Phat writes:
Rev Clavin....
Cliff Clavin is your pastor? That explains a lot.
Phat writes:
The short answer is that anyone could argue against Jesus being the only way and you continually do so.
And you have no counter-argument. All you do is shout swear-words like, "Skeptic!" Why don't you ever stick to a discussion?
Phat writes:
Since there is a spiritual conflict (which I see and believe) in the world, there never will be the obvious fact that there are not many gods.
On the contrary, "spiritual conflict" is drop-dead evidence that there are many gods. How could One God be in conflict?
Phat writes:
That argument is dead...
On the contrary, you have no counter-argument. You just keep running away from reality.
Phat writes:
Though the only reason, I could see you believe it is that you like to argue. You really don't believe in any of them.
At least I understand my own arguments. When you present an argument, it's usually more right-wing politics than theology and you usually don't understand it anyway.
If you want to deride my arguments, for Christ's sake DISCUSS them. Don't just say, "Nuh uh," and run away.
Phat writes:
How is it so easy to "unbelieve"?
It isn't. Read my posts.
Phat writes:
In fact, it seems to me that both you and jar were critical thinkers first and church members second.
Again, that would be a good thing - if it was true. Children should be taught critical thinking before they are ever allowed to set foot in a church.
But it isn't true. As I have said before, I was practically born in church. I could regurgitate Bible verses literally before I could read them. I was heavily indoctrinated in the crap you believe long before I ever heard of critical thinking.
Phat writes:
And neither of you can allow yourselves to believe what most Christians teach (and do).
You don't know what most Christians teach. In Canada, most Christians are Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. - whom you would curse as "liberals". Stop pretending that you're part of some majority. You're not.
Phat writes:
You seemingly prefer the company of secular do-gooders who have a beer with you while unloading a food truck.
Why don't you read my posts? I have told you before that most of the people I know are Christians.
Phat writes:
This leads support to your idea that St.Anthony=Jesus=Leprechauns. Which is more evidence that you never were a believer.
Non sequitur.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected".
Convenient for whom? Ive never believed that
For you. You've said it many times, haven't you?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 6:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 487 of 1864 (887080)
07-07-2021 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Phat
07-07-2021 10:55 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
Except that Jesus never argued against God being real.
But you reject what He taught.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Phat, posted 07-07-2021 10:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 2:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 490 of 1864 (887088)
07-09-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Phat
07-09-2021 2:28 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
You always. claim that I am nore anti Jesus than you are. this dead horse has been beaten enough.
As long as you keep denying Jesus, I'm going to keep calling you out on it.
Phat writes:
I love and trust Jesus....
You love and trust the "Jesus" that you made up. You continually deny the one in the Book, the only one any evidence exists for.
Phat writes:
I am not alone in this behavior.
The behavior is common enough - but I don't think many professing Christians would reject the Bible as openly as you do, putting your own "experiences" above the "dusty old book".
Phat writes:
And why you continually bring it up as an argumentative point puzzles me...
As long as you keep denying Jesus, I keep pointing it out. What's puzzling about that?
Phat writes:
... unless in so doing you mean to indict a larger group of Christians.
If the shoe fits, they can wear it. I'd like to think that some people would take rejecting Jesus more seriously than you do.
Phat writes:
is the reason you rejected Christianity at least partly to do with what you saw as hypocrisy?
I've answered that question for you before. Read my posts.
No, I don't have a particular problem with hypocrites. And I don't "reject" Christianity any more than you reject Mormonism. Do you reject Mormonism because Mormons are hypocrites?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 2:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 9:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 491 of 1864 (887089)
07-09-2021 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Phat
07-09-2021 6:54 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
Im not ignoring you so much as I am reframing and rephrasing my argument.
But your phrasing is always the same.
Phat writes:
Oh I try and understand you. To do that I attempt to engage you in dialogue.
You have hundreds of posts from me that you never answered. And you're constantly grave-digging old threads and trying to start Great Debates with anybody who might conceivably agree with you, so you can't claim you don't have time.
And you repeatedly refuse to talk about apologetics. How is any of that attempting to engage me in dialogue?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 07-09-2021 6:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 07-10-2021 2:01 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024