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Member (Idle past 1367 days) Posts: 104 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology? | |||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It isn’t at all - if you accept the idea that DNA contains information relevant to the construction of the phenotype. And if you recognise that this is in the context of Richard Wang claiming that material processes cannot add information and that this is a prob,em for evolution.
quote: The first argument is constructed to avoid any need to define it further. It is only necessary to accept that a point mutation can change the amount of information in the DNA. A refusal to accept that point will lead to serious problems for any evolutionary argument. The second argument appeals to the intuitive point that two useful genes with differing sequences will contain more information than either one on their own. There is no need for further measurement if that is accepted - and refusing to accept it is both counter-intuitive and likely to cause problems for the opposing argument.
quote: This shows that the problem is in the reader, not the text since the first argument makes it clear that if an increase is possible then a decrease is also possible,
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: For a start the fact that there is no evidence of any guiding force behind mutations. Mutations occur without regard for whether they will be useful or not. Many are not or are even harmful. But really if you are going to claim the opposite you need evidence. Are we finally going to see you support your claims ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: This is the same question as can point mutations lose genetic information?. What’s your position on that?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Because it’s what we would expect if mutations were produced by the actions of natural law and not by the acts of an intelligence. And I note that you do not produce the slightest evidence to the contrary.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Perhaps you should actually deal with my response, too. As I have already pointed out twice, if point mutations can lose information then point mutations can add information. And certainly they can contribute to all the things you mention even if they are not the complete story. E.g. the diversification in duplication and diversification discussed in my earlier post is likely to involve point mutations.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Non-random in what sense and how does it help your argument ?
Noting that you have yet again ignored my points and yet again have failed to produce any evidence that anything other than natural law is involved.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Maybe you should try to provide some evidence for your claims?
Falsely accusing others of deception is bad enough - when it seems to be intended to deceive further it becomes worse.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I don’t notice many people actually being deceived. I suspect that you made a fool of yourself by failing to understand, but if so, that’s really your problem. Randomness in common use is so poorly defined anyway it is up to you to make the effort.
quote: Not really.
quote: Sure, the disconnection between the mutations and the environment is one of the factors that makes a stochastic model appropriate.
quote: Well let’s see if you offer any evidence of a violation of natural law or if it’s just more silliness like your assertion that cell phones violate natural law.
Message 392. No evidence. Message 398 No evidence Message 403. No evidence Message 408. No evidence Message 411 No evidence Message 424. No evidence. So I guess you’d better try again..
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It doesn’t seem special to me. And it is a very important point. It is what we’d expect if mutations were purely natural.
quote: You are not making much sense. A transposition is just a sequence of DNA moving around the genome. It even seems to be pretty random where it ends up. It certainly isn’t any more complex editing.
quote: Define is a little strong - it is an accepted meaning, not the only one. However, I would like to point out that a lottery should be random in exactly the same way. David’s numbers should not be more or less likely to come up because David has chosen them. If it did it would be a non-random aspect and the sort of non-random aspect that the lottery should avoid. I would further add that this sort of randomness is exactly what we might expect if mutation did follow natural laws.
quote: The fact that you are heading off on a nit-picking diversion is proof that you have lost the debate.
quote: I could more fairly accuse you of dodging the point I made in that post.
quote: Obviously it is not more important to you. This whole diversion proves that it is not.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I did answer it directly.
Define is a little strong - it is an accepted meaning, not the only one Funny how that isn’t one of your quotes.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
It certainly answers your question.. if it isn’t the answer you want, then that’s your problem.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Obviously it does. Why are you even trying to argue about that? I gave you an honest answer to your question.
quote: I’m not, but maybe you are trying to. Maybe that’s why you object to my answer. Until you can give an honest explanation of what is wrong with my answer - and so far you’ve just insisted that it isn’t an answer when it obviously is - I’m certainly not going to change it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That is your opinion, but so far you have produced no real evidence for it.
quote: That is an outright falsehood.
quote: If cutting and pasting to a random location is your idea of editing. I’m surprised that your posts are coherent if that’s true.
quote: And that offers a whole lot more options that just transpositions. And if only that were the only problem with the argument. You provide no evidence that transpositions are intelligently directed at all. Nor do you address the underlying chemistry.
quote: Bad analogies are not observed facts. So,blocks of DNA can move randomly. How is this evidence of the supernatural ? Your supposed analogy assumes intelligent control but you provide no evidence of it at all. indeed the fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness is one reason to believe that there is no intelligent direction behind transpositions or any other mutation.
quote: I hope you will have the honesty to admit that you lost through a failure to provide any real evidence at all for your position. But I don’t have much hope.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I disagree. Your refusal to accept facts is a big part of your crushing defeat.
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