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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: This smacks of determinism. We can freely choose to do whatever there is available for us to do. We can feed a bird. Or a homeless man. We can protest government stupidity or excesses of power. We can ignore our family. We can shoot someone. If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions. According to apologetic logic, God allowed an adversary to exist. This adversary is in the angelic class. Don't ask me about the classifications...I will admit that some dogma and myth's sound a bit unnecessary and outlandish. Tangle is a sane one for choosing realism and empiricism, but he insults the many people who have chosen to believe the old stories.And you may ask why an otherwise intelligent man such as myself chose to believe? My answer, among others, is that I initially wanted a God to exist--but on my terms.My Dad and his generous wallet were sufficient for me in the early years---as I was just simply growing up, exploring reality, and planning an optimistic and successful future. Later, I felt dissatisfied with life and with the way that things were going in the world. Had I grown up today I would have felt even more this way. The real reason that I decided to believe is that I experienced confirmation several times. PaulK writes: If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good. I don't think God is blaming humans.He knew that part of the reality of our creation and survival would involve free choice and a spiritual struggle. He allowed the struggle because, as far as I can reason, he had to allow the possibility of autonomy (and rebellion) against Him to exist. It had to be a definite choice. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: It’s actually completely independent of determinism, unless you wish to argue that God’s foreknowledge relies on determinism.
quote: And if God is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of all, God decreed those choices in advance and you cannot do anything else - because God cannot be wrong and God set everything up.
quote: Unless you are going to assume limits on God, God chose that an adversary would exist and all that adversary’s actions. Which means that it isn’t God’s adversary, but might be ours.
quote: There’s a lot of talk about sin and punishment and the necessity of atonement in the Bible. Which is all a bit of a sham if humans aren’t to blame.
quote: But if our choices are all decided in advance it isn’t really rebellion or autonomy. We’re still puppets on unbreakable strings.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
The problem is in the statement "he [god] had to allow the possibility of autonomy..."
An omniscient god cannot "allow" anything. If I build a robot and set it off to do its job, even though I may have programmed it perfectly, it could still encounter unforeseen circumstances (a solar flare, chewing gum left on the sidewalk...) and not do as it was built to do. But an omniscient god cannot be the victim of "unforeseen circumstances"! Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Nobody said that God was the "victim" of unforeseen circumstances. Do you honestly think that Jesus was Plan B? Jesus was Plan A from the beginning.
Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy. I have the choice to choose autonomy or communion. Even if God somehow foreknew my choice is itself irrelevant to me. And even if I end up accepting your argument that Gods foreknowledge eliminates any choice in the matter, what problem would *you* never mind I have with such a life? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Then the Fall was also part of Plan A from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise,
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Of course there are (if you postulate an omniscient god) no "unforeseen circumstances"!
If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sarah Bellum writes: I would argue that within that framework, we can decide to acknowledge and obey or we can decide to ignore and be autonomous or as some would say humanists and responsible for our daily decisions. If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will. And I might add there is no reason we cannot borrow from both extremes. As far as true Free Will, such as the ability to re-imagine the universe in our image, I would say no---we do not have that kind of free will."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
If I write a book and on page 1 a character insists they have free will and later, on page 10, they say, "I choose scrambled eggs for breakfast, instead of bangers and mash" you would never say that there was actually a creature that had the free will that that character claims.
So it is with an omniscient god creating the universe.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So you see us as characters in a book? Interesting concept. But what if we co-authored the book with God? We essentially became the decisions we made.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: To me it makes logical sense that the "Fall" was originally anticipated. jar of course thinks its all silly and that the "Fall" was an apologetic marketing scam and I never can counter his arguments---he basically thinks all apologists are dishonest. Then the Fall was also part of Plan A from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise... Of course I can and do stick by my guns regarding the basic scenario which I feel is most likely. Granted it is not plainly supportable using the Bible alone, though most apologists run with it--and I think that they feel or believe that some of us have a connection and insight into Gods plan based on our communion through the Spirit. Which opens up a whole nother can o worms as many critics claim that the Bible plainlyu says what it says and can be as easily interpreted by an atheist scholar as it can by an "enlightened" one. So here we are. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: OK, so the Fall was part of the plan all along. It does make sense but many Christians don’t want to accept that God wanted it and intended it. Even the Bible usually blames Adam and/or Eve.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
That seems a bit schizophrenic.
You need the lack of restraint to label the evil inclination evil, but if you include it the case for it’s necessity goes. Does God have the evil inclination? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have the sex instinct or physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition? Another point of course, is if the evil inclination is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one?
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I recently heard a good apologetic podcast
quote:Transcript And also...in answering your post:
Does God have the evil inclination? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have the sex instinct or physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition? It was my understanding that though God is aware of these traits, all of them being present in a rebellious nature, God does not "have them" in that God does not use them or need them. God is simply aware of evil. He allowed that "spirits" possibility in order to provide a fully free-willed decision process to those beings of His creation who did not fully trust Him and wanted to *know* more. Confusing?
Another point of course, is if the evil inclination is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one? The better world is already made and only awaits those who trust the authority and realize that a better world cannot exist for them through their own autonomy. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But your own description of God is, "Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." Evil is seen and unseen. God is simply aware of evil."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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