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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If it was provable, there would be no reason to believe. The only time a belief should be embraced is when it can not be proven.
Must a belief be provable before you embrace it? Phat writes:
You tell me. What possible reasons could you have for rejecting belief in leprechauns?
What possible reasons would you have for rejecting it? Phat writes:
Actually, it was believers trying to prove their beliefs that convinced me they didn't know what they were talking about.
Perhaps you came from a family of believers who made no sense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
As I have said before, I think "free will" is a nonsense concept.
As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil .... Phat writes:
According to Wikipedia:
....an attractive nuisance if you will.quote:The creator is responsible. Phat writes:
How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns?
On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Phat writes:
Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him?
What about the possibility of ignoring God? ...Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is that more likely?
More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns. Phat writes:
I'm asking WHY you think one product is better quality than the other.
My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You admit that God is not a real presence in your life. So why do you call our ideas "ridiculous"?
I refuse, however, to embrace the ridiculous ideas brought forth here at EvC that disprove and discredit God and Jesus as real presences in human lives. Phat writes:
That might actually work. But can you live with Jesus being finite?
ringo writes:
Perhaps Jesus, being human, was the finite piece. Since He is connected to an infinite God, (at one end) and an infinite Holy Spirit(at the other end) He becomes One with them. Phat writes:
Draw the line. You can only divide it at finite places. You can't have three infinite pieces when you only have two infinite ends. Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also? Phat writes:
Because three is a magic number. The only problem I would hypthetically have now is reasoning why there needs to be a GOD (The Father) and a Holy Spirit. Eleven disciples could have done the work of twelve - a couple of them were just tag-alongs anyway - but Jesus the Numerologist insisted on twelve. There could have been nine commandments. The first one is really just a preamble anyway. The week could be eight days long. God could have spent a whole day on humans if He wanted to emphasize that we are different from animals. But magic trumps mathematics in God-land.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Oh come on. There's a whole publishing industry and a whole movie industry based on spinning stories out of nothing.
It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. Phat writes:
No I don't. I don't know where you got that idea. I have said many times that the Jesus character is most likely an amalgamation of several itinerant preachers, much like Elmer Gantry.
I feel that Jesus existed...as do you... Phat writes:
And that there are unseen leprechauns....
...and that there is an unseen Creator. Phat writes:
Your thinking is inconsistent. The way you scoff at evidence, you might as well reject evolution too. Evolution makes sense, but I do not believe that God does NOT make sense...I think that that idea too is plausible.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a completely empty prediction. No doubt the Greeks and the Vikings made the same prediction about their myths. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away. It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
How about giving us a few examples? The Holy Bible tells us time and time again that one is the Father and the other is the Son (two).And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But why is the possibility of disobedience "necessary"? Why does the whiny little god you've made up "require" obedience? Leaving an apple on the table could well be called a deliberate set-up, but it allowed for the possibility of disobedience. Edited by ringo, : Splling."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with being "deplorable". You claimed it was "necessary". Why is it necessary?
why is it so deplorable to think about obeying? Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with believing in a higher power. It's about OBEDIENCE. Why is it "necessary"? The problem of course is that you have never seen a reason (or evidence) to believe in a higher power... Look at the prodigal son. What was necessary in that relationship was not obedience. If anything was necessary it was forgiveness - unconditional, inclusive forgiveness.
Phat writes:
The "reality" of God doesn't get to anybody because it isn't real. It's a fantasy. The reality of God never got you. It's possible that there is a GOD and it's possible that we will meet HER some day but until we do, there is no reality to it, only made-up and hoped-for fantasy."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Get down off your high horse. You've used the female pronoun yourself.
First of all, Gods human character is male not female. Phat writes:
That might be relevant if I had mentioned Jesus at all. But I was talking about GOD.
(Jesus is male) Phat writes:
That's an irrelevant assertion.
Second of all, the story is not simply a fantasy. Phat writes:
That nonsense has been covered many times before.
This is evident by the impact it has had on people, culture, and History. Fantasy's run out of steam long before having such impact. Phat writes:
You have it backwards. The prodigal son parable definitely DOES apply to God and His children. The whole "Lucifer" bit is something that you are trying to spackle on. The prodigal son parable shows that your Lucifer nonsense is just made up.
What I'm trying to emphasize to ringo is the idea that were we to apply;y the prodigal "son" parable to God and the Angels, Lucifer would be the prodigal. Phat writes:
Irrelevant assertion. And dead wrong, too. You mentioned yourself (didn't you?) that Jesus WAS tempted to rebel ("Take this cup from me.")
Jesus is Gods character and God cannot rebel against Himself. Phat writes:
You're assuming the conclusion. Obedience MIGHT be necessary IF "dualistic diversity" was valid. But that 's the question. You can't use it as the answer. ringo asks "why the need for obedience?" Answer: To preserve union as opposed to a dualistic diversity."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're making it pretty clear that your mind is closed like a bear trap. Danial Dennet is a curmudgeonly atheist philosopher...so I take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt. I'll look him up though...I've seen him spout atheistic nonsense with Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop lying about me. I have told you many times that I would gladly believe if there was any reason to believe. You, on the other hand, have told me many times that you will never give up your beliefs. No more than your mind is closed to any sort of possibility of a spiritual realm..."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well DUH. This seems to only be possible if one values objective evidence and rationality over their belief. Evidence and reality ALWAYS trump belief. Always, always, always.
Phat writes:
That's where your problem is. I don't believe that there is any more evidence for YOUR god than there is for any other god. YOU believe there is no evidence for the other gods. You just need to catch up by one god.
ringo likely believes that there is no "evidence" of any gods. Phat writes:
WRONG - as i have told you many times. Do you read my posts at all? He believes in human potential as the only thing that really matters and that we can test and measure. I believe that human potential is all we have. Even if it's only a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10, it's all we have. Christians are living proof of that."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
Obviously not. We can argue about Frodo without assuming that Frodo exists. In order to argue about anything related to God, one first NEEDS to assume that there is a God."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
Your premise is false. It is certainly possible to discuss the nature odf a fictional entity, such as Frodo. In order to believe in the nature of Trinity, you must first believe that there is a single God."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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