|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
But this is all nonsense because according to the theology god created two perfect worlds, Heaven and Eden.
Why then suffer this crap?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
1.61803 writes: That's why one must accept that you can not have things like free will and then expect that someone else's choice may infringe on your freewill. Someone is gonna get hurt. No way around it. If God exist he certainly is unable to reconcile this issue because maybe he as well is willing to accept the down side in order for us to exist as well. I dont know. Yes - if this is the way it "must be" - then I agree. Of course "freewill" and "someone getting hurt" are two very large ranges.I don't see them as on/off switches. That is - the freewill to but a t-shirt or a sweater, to vacation in Cuba or the Galapagos, to spend time with these people over those people... seems like such freewill could be contained if other freewill like wanting to kill another person or have sex without consent were removed. As with getting hurt. I don't see why we could still stub our toes if things like sex without consent were prevented. How could it be prevented?Again - if it's "impossible for God" - then, fair enough, God is not all powerful and we have what we have. But, if it's not "impossible for God" - then God is either evil (towards humans, anyway) for not creating a better world - or God doesn't exist. And that question: Is it impossible for God or not? - is certainly a question that I'm not capable of answering.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
Can't pass up the opportunity.
Of course it's "impossible for God". Can't do when you don't exist.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes: What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no. PaulK writes:
Why would you say no ? We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ? Why ? Surely God can live up to any standard that we would expect from a mere human.Phat writes: So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions PaulK writes: Foreknowledge - or at least a very good idea of what will happen - is an important part of it. But so is the act of creation - and not just of us, but of everything else. Given the usual abilities attributed to God, we might rephrase your words this way:
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if he manipulates us so that we choose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we are manipulated into being be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves just because he made us do it ?
You call all these things "free choices" but none of them are conscious choices for us. But they are God's conscious choices made before we could do anything, and which we have no power to avoid. How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ? Continuing... Message 551Phat writes:
Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan.PaulK writes: Which, in this scenario - like all our other choices - has been dictated by God. That is no reason at all not to hold God responsible. My hypothetical scenario is that we humans can freely decide on our chosen course of action based on the choices available to us on any given day of our lives. The apologists tell us that God created a freewilled Lucifer who chose autonomy and rejected obedience and that this was essentially a divine set-up so as to allow free will to be expressed. One can argue that God is still ultimately responsible for this whole scenario but so what? Nobody can indict Him anyway. Determinism would argue that we have no choice in the matter. I say that it is irrelevant what God foreknows. Its His game anyway. We are still responsible for the choices we make on a daily basis. ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. Something about Dad forgiving us for being rebellious and autonomous. Yet we have already been given a cheat sheet. Jesus is the final answer. Why is this so hard to conceptualize?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh hush! Pagan.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5
|
quote: If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions. If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The "fallen Lucifer" thing is just made-up nonsense. You shouldn't make it such a big part of your theology. Or any part, actually. ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. For homework, look up how many times the name "Lucifer" appears in the Bible. The tell us whom it refers to."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote:This dictionary is commonly used and came with my BibleSoft software. I'm sure that you will claim that it was hijacked by apologists! So lets see what Wiki has to say:
Lucifer I understand the origin of the various mythos associated with this character, but Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural is to your detriment. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I asked you what the Bible has to say. So lets see what Wiki has to say According to my calculations, the word "Lucifer" appears ONCE in the King James Version - and has been dropped entirely by most newer translations. In Isaiah 14:12, Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists.
Phat writes:
What if the so-called "mission of Christ" was also made up?
Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. Phat writes:
What's the problem with that?
What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? Phat writes:
Stop saying that. It's a lie.
The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural.... Phat writes:
As I have told you before, I have had "experiences" too. You misinterpret them as "supernatural". I don't. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Utter nonsense. Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Babylon means confusion and todays world fits that definition. Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today. Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists. You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature. And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
There's nothing naive about it. It's what the Bible says. The whole story of Lucifer is made up. The apologist stories about a powerful Satan/Lucifer/etc. are totally incompatable with an omniscient God. They're not only made up, they're an insult to God.
Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Phat writes:
Babylon means Babylon. Sometimes you guys are not literal enough.
Babylon means confusion... Phat writes:
Isaiah wasn't talking about today's world. Don't be so egocentric.
... and todays world fits that definition. Phat writes:
And that's clearly a human attruibute that needs no external spook to foster it. Don't try to shift the blame for your own shortcomings onto a fictional character.
Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today. Phat writes:
You're not interested in the truth. You're afraid to discuss the apologists. Save your insults untill you can actually defend what those liars say.
You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature. Phat writes:
That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God. And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: We've been down this rabbit trail before! Your basic argument is that God had no reason to "create" or allow an attractive nuisence such as the Tree of Knowledge in the garden without thus becoming fully responsible for any collateral damage that said tree may cause. So I'll give you that one. Blame God! It matters not. The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with. That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God. You scold me for adopting the good/evil cosmic battle as part of my Theology...but Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?
The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with. Phat writes:
You keep saying that but you never back it up.
Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. Phat writes:
That mental state has nothing to do with any Satan - or Jesus, for that matter. And believers don't demonstrate an understanding greater than unbelievers. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Why must it be one or the other? Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence. So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I thought you agree that they are incompatible.
Why must it be one or the other? Phat writes:
It makes Satan irrelevant. If God is all-knowing, He's responsible for evil. Satan may be his tool (see Job), though that would be unnecessary too if God was omnipotent. But Satan can't be the super-villain that you make him out to be. Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024