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Author | Topic: 3 Theories Of Everything by Ellis Potter | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
PaulK writes: Potter plays his cards quite close to the vest. He explains his conclusions further: I don’t think that monism or dualism can be described as worldviews and trinitarianism - presumably the belief that there are three substances - probably can’t either.3 Theories Of Everything writes:
So lets figure out what Potter means when he claims these three absolutes. I believe the existence of absolutes is most likely,but is inconvenient and disagreeable to our egos. People nowadays are often motivated not to believe in absolutes, because if there are true absolutes, then we are responsible to the absolute.(...)When I looked for absolutes, I discovered there weren't many. I believe it comes down to three: Monism, Dualism, and Trinitarianism.Ellis Potter writes: Personally, the way you guys carry on around here, I see you as accepters of scientism.
If science is the measure of everything, you have scientism. If the human being is the measure of everything,you have humanism.ringo writes: I'm finding my argument through discussion. I am not quite able to express Potters views in my own words, though I am finding quotes that he makes which I agree with. Tangle would claim that I am simply agreeing with made up mumbo jumbo that gives me comfort. Perhaps he is right. Time will tell.
If Potter has any arguments of value, bring them here in your own words.Ellis Potter writes: We have explored three absolute worldviews, each of which provides a unique hope to the problem of suffering. (Potter calls it 3 circles) PaulK writes: I considered your line of reasoning enough to look outside Potters definitions.
Idealism and Materialism are both forms of monism but I can’t say that they are the same worldview at allStanford Encyclopedia Of Philosophy writes: The article gets deep, but does not address Potters insistence that there are only 3 basic absolutes:
There are many monisms. What they share is that they attribute oneness. Where they differ is in what they attribute oneness to (the target), and how they count (the unit).Oneism Twoism Threeism. Potter was a Buddhist before he became a Christian. The story is intriguing. Edited by Phat, : punctuation 101"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Phat writes: I believe the existence of absolutes is most likely,but is inconvenient and disagreeable to our egos. What does he think an 'absolute' is? It sounds like he's just substituting a pseudo-philosophical term for a god.
People nowadays are often motivated not to believe in absolutes, because if there are true absolutes, then we are responsible to the absolute.(...) Bullshit. That's just the rationalisation of a believer. People don't believe in religious waffle because it's just dumb.
When I looked for absolutes, I discovered there weren't many. I believe it comes down to three: Monism, Dualism, and Trinitarianism. I can't even work out what this is supposed to mean - if anything.
If science is the measure of everything, you have scientism. If the human being is the measure of everything,you have humanism. Science is simply a method of understanding our universe. Scientism is a slander than those believing in magic use in an attempt to dismiss it because it threatens them. Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. The measure of everything? Again, he's just saying that humanists don't believe in god - wow who knew? - and being critical of then for not doing.
Tangle would claim that I am simply agreeing with made up mumbo jumbo that gives me comfort. Perhaps he is right. That at least is true.
The story is intriguing. The only intriguing thing about it is why anyone is fooled by a pile of incoherent twaddle.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: No, this makes no sense to me at all.
quote: I don’t think that my views would be fairly classified as either. Some things should be science-centred. Others should be human-centred.
quote: Then it’s likely that Potter is using his own private definitions. And without those we can’t discuss his work.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.7
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If science is the measure of everything, you have scientism. If the human being is the measure of everything,you have humanism. I found one of his absolutes. This is one big absolute pile of crap. Why so narrow minded? Why present this as some mutually exclusive dichotomy? And how could either be the "measure of all things"? What does that even mean?Factio Republicana delenda est.
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jar Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And it absolutely sells to those who simply don't know how to think or that know how but refuse to think.
Absolutely great stuff for bobbleheads.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
AZPaul3 writes: We are in the process (in this discussion) of defining reality...as an abstract concept. jar always talks of logic, reason,l and reality. Why so narrow minded? Why present this as some mutually exclusive dichotomy? And how could either be the "measure of all things"? What does that even mean? So lets ask ourselves some questions.
jar writes: It is so easy for you to bash and criticize other peoples arguments while being too lazy to provide one of your own. You often trip over your own ego. To be fair, you dont have the book to read as I do, thus you cannot fully understand Potters arguments and yet you immediately jump to your pet conclusion that the man must be "selling" something and that he is likely a conman. Am I right?
And it absolutely sells to those who simply don't know how to think or that know how but refuse to think. Potter writes: You would of course disagree, claiming that the Bible is human-centric and was created solely as a product of man. Edited, redacted, compiled, yada yada yada. The Western tradition of thought recognizes that the idea 'things were once perfect and need to be made right again' is the biblical view of history. So some questions about the basic storyline.
Perhaps another way to phrase the question I am asking is this:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
PaulK writes: Those two concepts are monastic and indistinguishable. They both are human centered. You cant have science without humans to define and quantify it. I don’t think that my views would be fairly classified as either. Some things should be science-centred. Others should be human-centred."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
When you suggest that someone makes the claim that you posted, then I most certainly can see that he is simply another carny huckster.
Examples:
quote: That itself is more than enough evidence to simply laugh and walk away. But wait, there's more. You posted some more of his absurdities in Message 16. They are all simply meaningless word salad and quite honestly, just bullshit and misrepresentation as has already been pointed out to you.
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ringo Member (Idle past 669 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Exactly. Thoughts and experiences. Maybe even based on a real person. But NOT living today.
Long John Silver may have evolved from thoughts and experiences far deeper than his character in the book actually hinted at. Phat writes:
Are you? Put it in your own words so we can see what YOU think it means. You seem to adhere to this world view... ... Am I close?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: Oh they are distinguishable. From a scientistic viewpoint there is nothing wrong with using Mengele’s data. From a humanistic viewpoint that data is tainted by the way Mengele got it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
ringo writes: OK I will try. I've heard your arguments enough that I think I can mimic them to a degree. Put it in your own words so we can see what YOU think it means. You essentially believe or are convinced through logic, reason, and reality that there is an essential distinction between beliefs (of any garden variety) and facts...those events,behaviors, and physical laws which can be objectively proven. I perused Potters notes in his questions and answers to see if he addressed your particular types of worldviews and did not specifically find it. I concluded on my own that you were basically Monists...if we could fit you (ringo,Tangle, and perhaps AZPaul3) into a category. In that there is a singular reality and not a dualistic cosmic battle or a Trinitarian God who brings His wayward children back into a unified fold through Holy Communion. You guys essentially skip belief all together---you throw it away basically. All that you embrace is objective truths through human interpretation of physical evidence and the observable behavior of how the universe around us operates. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 669 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I'd rather have you explain Potter's arguments like I asked.
I've heard your arguments enough that I think I can mimic them to a degree. Phat writes:
Well of course there isn't a cosmic battle any more than there's one magic ring that rules them all. I don't see that as a worldview. It's just common sense that anybody with any worldview should be able to see.
... if we could fit you (ringo,Tangle, and perhaps AZPaul3) into a category. In that there is a singular reality and not a dualistic cosmic battle.... Phat writes:
It isn't about skipping belief. It's about realizing that belief is a last-ditch copout when you just can't bring yourself to admit that you don't know. You guys essentially skip belief all together---"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
I have to say the idea that the Trinity are three separate Gods is not one that orthodox Christianity accepts. But if they are really only one God isn’t that a form of what Potter calls monism ?
(I wonder how much Potter is influenced by Hindu belief. The Hindu Trimurti is usually presented as three Gods - at least in Western material - even if they are thought to be aspects of one The Christian Trinity is far more explicit about them being one God).
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
PaulK writes: Remember how he chooses to break this stuff down as "circles"? The first circle is Monism, the second circle is Dualism and the third circle is Trinitarianism? (Don't ask me why he does it this way.,...but lets roll with it for now) I have to say the idea that the Trinity are three separate Gods is not one that orthodox Christianity accepts. But if they are really only one God isn’t that a form of what Potter calls monism ? This is how he explains it:
quote:Thats what I think he meant when I quoted him in Message 1 I actually misquoted. The correct quote he used was: God alone is God,and God is not alone. He mentions that no other God in human imagination has this attribute. You can say Buddha alone is Buddha, but thats all. (The rest is silence)You can say Krishna alone is Krishna, or Allah alone is Allah, but again...the rest is silence. quote:Thus Potter explains his understanding of Trinitarianism as the centrality of the third circle. In a sense, his concept unifies Yin and Yang(the 2nd circle) back into monism(One God) while preserving the belief in the Trinity and a subsequent explanation of his understanding of it. Which sorta makes sense in that the first Adam fell from unity into diversity and the 2nd Adam, Jesus, reunified the diversity caused by that pesky snake back into perfect unity....through acceptance of GOD in the personality of Jesus Christ and preserved eternally through the presence of the Holy Spirit. I mean, it all makes sense to me. I know Tangle insists its all made up Bushwa, but in a strict sense, any belief can be accused of being made up. Ellis Potter expanded my own understanding of Christianity in that his explanations felt intuitively sound. I suppose a critically thinking scientist would challenge the assumptions, but without throwing all belief away and relying solely on objective evidential discovery, what else can one do? Edited by Phat, : added clarification"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: Explains is a bit strong. Doubling down on the contradictions of the Trinity is an interesting take but not one I can take seriously.
quote: How about the Trimurti The identification of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as one being is strongly emphasized in the Krma Pura, wherein 1.6 Brahman is worshipped as Trimurti; 1.9 especially inculcates the unity of the three gods, and 1.26 relates to the same theme I have to say that Potter looks like another apologist with nothing of great value to say.
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