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Author Topic:   Do you really understand the mathematics of evolution?
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 129 of 239 (877831)
06-22-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Kleinman
06-19-2020 1:32 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
I've presented it, you just are having difficulty seeing it.
Then present it in a way that I can see it.
Consider what will happen in the Kishony experiment if he uses a diploid eukaryote instead of a haploid prokaryote. For example, yeast, and instead of antibacterial agents, he uses antifungal agents. All else being the same with two antifungal agents being used. Assume a mutation rate of 1e-9.
If we are talking about double resistance, then it wouldn't be long after the single resistant mutants emerge that we would have doubly resistant organisms as the descendants of the singly resistant founders start to mate with one another. Of course, yeast can reproduce asexually and sexually, so we would be talking about purely sexual reproduction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Kleinman, posted 06-19-2020 1:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 12:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 131 of 239 (877836)
06-22-2020 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 12:36 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
Using your math, the single resistant mutants would emerge after 3e9 genome (gene) replications, it would then take another 3e9 replications of that variant for the second beneficial mutation to occur on the variant with the first beneficial mutation.
That's not my math. The single resistant mutants would occur separately in two individuals, and soon after each one emerges, about 3e9 replications, the descendants of those two mutants would mate and have offspring with both mutations.

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 Message 130 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 12:36 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 1:52 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 133 of 239 (877847)
06-22-2020 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 1:52 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
So what do those A and B variants do? Is there an internet web site where yeast can meet so that the correct variants mate?
If conditions are driving an increase in both variants then it won't take long for their numbers to increase and random mating matching two organisms that each have one of the variants.
This is basic sexual reproduction. I'm not sure what you are arguing against here. If there are two separate beneficial alleles in the population then it won't take long for those alleles to become common and for both of them to be found in a single offspring. You certainly don't have to wait for serial mutations in a single lineage.

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 Message 132 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 1:52 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 4:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 135 of 239 (877862)
06-22-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
The environment selects out all variants that can't feed on the particular food source because of the incorrect beak shape and the remaining variants increase in frequency and the population inbreed for those phenotypes. But what that has done is reduced the diversity of the individual populations.
If there were two traits under selection, wouldn't that increase the number of individuals for each of those traits, and increase the chances of two organisms mating and having those traits combined in their offspring?
Unless those alleles already exist in the population such as with Darwin's finches, you still need to get the appropriate mutations for the next evolutionary step. And you know that it takes 3e9 replication to get those variants.
So after 3e9 replications we have nearly every possible beneficial point mutation in eat least one individual. What happens when they start mating and mixing those beneficial mutations together?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 4:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 5:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 141 of 239 (877921)
06-23-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Kleinman
06-22-2020 5:55 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
Perhaps, but you would still have to get the correct variants mating and recombining to get the offspring with those traits.
If those traits are being selected for then that shouldn't be a problem.
In that population of 3e9, you will have one member with mutation A, one member with mutation B and the rest of the population will have different mutations or no mutations depending on the length of the genome.
If the bird genome is similar to the human genome, then each bird will have between 50 and 100 mutations specific to them.
You have one A card, one B card and the rest of the cards are not A or B cards, call them C cards
You are ignoring selection. The beneficial allele will become more common over time. This greatly increases the chances of the two beneficial mutations finding their way into a single offspring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Kleinman, posted 06-22-2020 5:55 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Kleinman, posted 06-23-2020 12:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 145 of 239 (877941)
06-23-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Kleinman
06-23-2020 12:53 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
But if you have selection at many different loci simultaneously (lots of different cards in the deck) with each variant being at low frequency, your probability of getting the correct recombination events drops off very rapidly.
Combining two beneficial loci will result in even higher fitness and increase the presence of both alleles.
Sure, lots of non-A and non-B cards.
Now you pretend that mutation rate doesn't matter.
But if you think that recombination solves your problem and you don't need DNA evolution, show us how you breed dogs and get cats.
I never said that DNA evolution isn't needed. What I have continually pointed out is that the specific conditions and outcomes of your pet experiments are not applicable to all situations. It isn't that hard to understand.
How do you get different breeds of dogs and cats? SEXUAL RECOMBINATION!!!!! For crying out loud. You select dogs from different populations that have 1 or 2 of the features you want. You breed those dogs together to get all the features you want. You can get black fur from one, webbed toes from another, herding instinct from another, long snout from another, curled tail from another . . . mix them altogether, select the traits you want through controlled breeding, and what you have is a new breed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Kleinman, posted 06-23-2020 12:53 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Kleinman, posted 06-23-2020 3:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 147 of 239 (878058)
06-25-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Kleinman
06-23-2020 3:44 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
Sure, if it can happen. I've shown you how to compute that probability with only two beneficial alleles. What do you think will happen if you are trying for three loci? Have you ever played poker?
Have you ever played bridge where you get to combine the cards from two hands?
Until you admit that sexual recombination exists there really isn't anything more to say. Ignoring the most basic biology gets you nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Kleinman, posted 06-23-2020 3:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 12:51 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 151 of 239 (878088)
06-25-2020 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 12:51 PM


Re: Does competition accelerate DNA evolution?
Kleinman writes:
And do you think that combining hands gives you a grand slam every time?
Do you think that for every single adaptation there is only one possible mutation in the entire genome that can produce that adaptation?
Do you think that for every single environmental challenge there is only one single adaptation that will work?
Why do you keep claiming that mutations have to wait for one another when sexual reproduction can combine them into a single offspring?

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 Message 149 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 12:51 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 152 of 239 (878089)
06-25-2020 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 1:06 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
So, Kishony starts the experiment by inoculating "wild-type" drug-sensitive bacteria on the drug-free region of his plate.
That's not a valid model for sexually reproducing populations in real environmental settings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 1:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 154 of 239 (878105)
06-25-2020 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 3:28 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
Yes indeedy it is. DNA evolution works the same for all replicators.
DNA evolution works differently in sexual and asexual species. Until you learn this lesson you will continue to fail at understanding this topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 3:28 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:32 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 156 of 239 (878112)
06-25-2020 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 4:32 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
Oh really? DNA evolution works differently in sexual and asexual species? How so?
Diploid v. haploid. Look it up.
Does the multiplication rule disappear for one type of replicator and it doesn't apply for the other?
The multiplication rule does disappear for diploid organisms. The fact you can't understand this says a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 158 of 239 (878117)
06-25-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 4:59 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
Where's that link that shows that DNA evolution works differently for sexual and asexual species?
Here:
Sexual reproduction - Wikipedia
Are you telling us that combination herbicides don't impair the evolution of herbicide resistance and combination pesticides don't impair the evolution of pesticide resistance?
Go back to your Kishony experiment. The multiplicative rule in that case requires evolution of resistance to one drug and then evolution of resistance to the other drug after that. This isn't the case for sexually reproducing species. The evolution of resistance can occur separately in two individuals, and then their descendants can mate and have offspring with resistance to both drugs. I have explained this so many times now that you would have to be an idiot not to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 4:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 5:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 160 of 239 (878121)
06-25-2020 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 5:24 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
Each additional selection pressure causes additional instances of the multiplication rule to be applied to the DNA evolutionary process.
Go back to your Kishony experiment. The multiplicative rule in that case requires evolution of resistance to one drug and then evolution of resistance to the other drug after that. This isn't the case for sexually reproducing species. The evolution of resistance can occur separately in two individuals, and then their descendants can mate and have offspring with resistance to both drugs. I have explained this so many times now that you would have to be an idiot not to understand it.
And the reason why combination herbicides and pesticides are used is to prevent the increase in the frequency of any variant that might have resistance to one drug or another.
Weed A is exposed to pesticide A in one region and develops resistance. Weed B is exposed to pesticide B in a different region and develops resistance.
We bring Weed A and Weed B into the same region. How many generations before you get resistance to pesticides A and B in a single weed? According to your multiplicative rule, it would take just as many generations to develop resistance to both pesticides as it did to one. Is that right?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 5:24 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 5:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 162 of 239 (878127)
06-25-2020 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 5:45 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
What you can't grasp is that these recombination events can occur only under very specific circumstances.
It happens in every individual in every generation in a sexually reproducing species.
People who do weed management aren't dumb enough to use their herbicides as you suggest. Your suggestion is all the more reason that naive school children need to learn the correct mathematics of evolution.
Answer the question.
Weed A is exposed to pesticide A in one region and develops resistance. Weed B is exposed to pesticide B in a different region and develops resistance.
We bring Weed A and Weed B into the same region. How many generations before you get resistance to pesticides A and B in a single weed? According to your multiplicative rule, it would take just as many generations to develop resistance to both pesticides as it did to one. Is that right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 5:45 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 6:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 188 of 239 (878364)
06-29-2020 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Kleinman
06-25-2020 6:26 PM


Re: The mathematics of DNA evolution
Kleinman writes:
I have, you just don't have the math skills to recognize it.
You're a liar. You haven't answered the question.
Answer the question.
Weed A is exposed to pesticide A in one region and develops resistance. Weed B is exposed to pesticide B in a different region and develops resistance.
We bring Weed A and Weed B into the same region. How many generations before you get resistance to pesticides A and B in a single weed? According to your multiplicative rule, it would take just as many generations to develop resistance to both pesticides as it did to one. Is that right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Kleinman, posted 06-25-2020 6:26 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Kleinman, posted 06-29-2020 2:20 PM Taq has replied

  
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