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Member (Idle past 504 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: OK, but allow me to ask some questions.
It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it. I've heard your answers. I disagree with some and agree with others. My Christian worldview is applicable to a subset of Christians yet is also personally unique. I DO believe that Jesus is Gods character and that it would be hard to throw that away and agree with a consensus that there is(are) many ways to God, Nirvana, Enlightenment or Inner Peace. To be honest, its not easy taking the opposing point of view.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: To be honest, its not easy taking the opposing point of view. Who in this thread first posted "It is important for you to examine your worldview and test it as if you were opposed to it."?
Phat writes: To me, it would be a sad sobering day if what you guys said were true and that GOD were simply an abstract unproved possibility and that the charge remained defined by humans for humans with no promises of any reward in having fed, clothed, loved, encouraged and supported other humans with no supernatural Father figure ready to hand out rewards to me and my fellow believers for having run the race so well. To even consider it as true in any way threatens my assurance that I unerringly believe. I will not doubt!! They are, but why should I even bother putting up this argument. You dont want the God that I market even if He were real. (and of course He is. He is alive) And I need Him. It frustrates me to no end that you would support a God Who allows people to remain unchanged and allowed to keep their own personality and lifestyle choices. Heaven is not all inclusive. If it were, God and I would have some issues. I would dare scold Him for being so liberal and tolerant. Heck, may as well allow Satan Himself back in! Start with each of the above.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I attempted to get a grasp of what it was that you guys were suggesting I do. After a bit of searching online in order to understand the task, I found this argument:
The Falsification Mindset: How to Change Your Own Mind Some key points:
Reading further:
Why is falsification important? At this point, my gut level reaction was that if I can falsify my assurance that something is most definitely true, I have weakened my certainty of faith! In addition, I have never believed that Evidence is even a needed part of the equation. However, the article goes on to say:
quote: I'm finally beginning to understand what you always meant when you told me to throw God away. I will say that this type of introspection can be quite uncomfortable and angst ridden. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I'm finally beginning to understand what you always meant when you told me to throw God away. I will say that this type of introspection can be quite uncomfortable and angst ridden. Yes, yes it can. Always best to do it as soon as possible.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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The thing with most of the more sophisticated current religious beliefs is that they have evolved to be basically unfalsifiable. A vague, ambiguous and intentionally undefinable concept (GOD) that did/does things that are only subjectively experienced if detectable at all. Ask yourself why those who hold and cherish religious beliefs might design their concepts in this way...
And by design I mean a process of meme adaption down the generations that we could call survival of the least falsifiable.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Speaking as a believer (and by this I mean someone who became (or thought he became) Born Again and filled with Gods Spirit) falsification of such a tangible and real experience will have to be allowed and initiated by the Spirit of God Himself. You guys just dont understand how personal and close God is to me. I'm not talking about the dogma, nor the teachings of the church-at-large nor of the fervent people surrounding me (at a 6 foot social distance) and singing to Him in church---though all of that serves to fuel a confirmation bias. I'm talking about my private prayer life and time of meditation, introspection, and communion.
This is most definitely something I would not seek to falsify unless the Holy Spirit gave me a subtle thumbs up that it was not harmful to do so. Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
quote: Read that carefully Phat and think about what it actually says. It is "The Venite", the "Oh Come". It is a part of what is known as "Morning Prayer", a service to begin each Christian's day. But it is also in many ways directly opposition to the God that you market.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: You guys just don't understand how personal and close God is to me [....] Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not? Of course we understand; it's a delusion, they're very powerful things. If you talked that way about anything else other than religion you'd be seeing a doctor. Religious delusions get a free pass in our society. Some of us have felt the same and managed to snap out of it. Some - like you - really want the delusion so it continues. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
As I listened to a few recordings and versions of the Venite, I began to meditate and commune with God as I understand Him. If you recall, I used to (and still do in my fleshier moments) accuse you of being obtuse and private in your refusal to discuss your own personal relationship with God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and because of your refusal I was led to believe that you didnt have a relationship. In fact, you always asked (and ask) me how such a relationship would even be possible.
The Venite 609 So just now, I meditated on this morning prayer of which you speak. I paid attention to the beauty of the expression of faith that was more a discipline and less raw charismatic emotion. I thought to myself how, if God exists (which I believe He does) and if He judges the thoughts and intents of the human heart, singing such a prayer as a daily discipline would serve the purpose of emptying my mind of the daily wish list that I normally would discuss with God and would instead focus on my adoration and respect for Him rather than my expectation of a favoring cosmic Father whom I took for granted.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
And that’s why such beliefs are designed to be unfalsifiable. You couldn’t bear the idea of them being falsified. You are far from alone in that.
Does that make any sense to you from your perspective and if not why not? It does make sense. In psychological sense at least. But I’m sure that in my case if I held such beliefs there would be a nagging part of me wondering if the reason I was so resistant, and the reason the beliefs themselves seemed so designed to be avoid falsification, was because they weren’t actually true....
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But how can you say with 100% certainty that it is a delusion? Why is the idea that my beliefs are a delusion itself not falsifiable?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: I like the honesty. There should be a "nagging part" of us that remains unconvinced (or brainwashed, as it were) But I’m sure that in my case if I held such beliefs there would be a nagging part of me wondering if the reason I was so resistant, and the reason the beliefs themselves seemed so designed to be avoid falsification, was because they weren’t actually true.... And I say "brainwashed" to make you guys laugh---the believers would not laugh. They would never entertain such a notion for it would threaten their very sanity. Look, I got saved in 1993 and have been quite convinced, resisting doubt, defending my faith as any good apologist would do, and encouraging others to share my faith with me. One strong reason that I choose to continue to believe the way that I do is because there have been many many times...too numerous to count---where scripture spoke to me in a way that no other book can or has done for me. You would likely chalk it up to confirmation bias, however. Have you ever known any friends who were or are strong believers? Do you get along with them?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But did you read it as I suggested?
quote:
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: But how can you say with 100% certainty that it is a delusion? Because you think you're talking to an invisible being. That pretty much does it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Have you ever known any friends who were or are strong believers? Do you get along with them? Of course! My late grandfather was a pretty devout Catholic. Current friend at work is a Muslim. And lots of people I am friends with are believers of one sort or another. I keep my fervent irreligiousness to debate sites generally! Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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