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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 211 of 794 (876797)
05-28-2020 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
05-28-2020 10:18 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Phat writes:
Intellectuals may scoff at the whole "casting out devils" part of the agenda, but I've seen evidence of it personally and won't question it to the point of doubt. That is a strategy of the enemy and not mine.
The only enemy is yourself. You're trying to convince yourself that you're infallible.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 212 of 794 (876802)
05-28-2020 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
05-28-2020 10:46 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Phat writes:
And my answer would then be no.
He does not speak to me. Or anyone I know. So you're wrong aren't you?
He really does, you know.
He does not. If he/it ever did there'd be no atheists and everyone would be a Christian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 213 of 794 (876872)
05-29-2020 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ringo
05-28-2020 12:38 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
You're trying to convince yourself that you're infallible.
This does not follow. Just because I take a stand on belief to the exclusion of doubt does not portray infallibility. Perhaps arrogance at worst. I might claim that you see science logic as tentatively infallible, even though it has no ability to measure the supernatural. Comments?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 05-28-2020 12:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 794 (876874)
05-29-2020 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Tangle
05-28-2020 1:23 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
He does not speak to me. Or anyone I know. (...)If he/it ever did there'd be no atheists and everyone would be a Christian.
It takes two to make a connection. God speaks to all yet only a few hear His voice. This is not His fault unless you claim that His goal should have been to save everybody, free will be damned.
Matt 13:16-17 writes:
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Whose fault is that? Is God at fault because you somehow cannot hear Him?
************************************************************
Also consider the following debate:
Matt: Why is it that you do not believe in God?
Dan: Because there is no evidence that he exists.
Matt: You can't say that because you have not looked at all evidence in the world. That isn't possible.
Dan: Let's just say I don't see sufficient evidence for God's existence.
Matt: But, if a person asked you what kind of things you'd accept, within reason, as evidence for God, what would you say? If you have nothing to offer, then you haven't thought your position through . . . and if you haven't done that, then can you honestly lay claim to the title atheist?
Dan: Come up with a way that you would believe in unicorns, and I'll show you a way to fake it. You come up with an airtight way to believe in unicorns, then get back to me about the illogic of my position.
Matt: The way to believe in unicorns is to find one or have pictures of one or a fossil of one or a bunch of people who said they saw one; and they all described, basically, the same thing: a unicorn. That would be a way.
Dan: Well, how about, if he [God] could do something that was clearly illogical, like make a square circle, and show it to me. Then I would believe.
Matt: A square circle is a non-sequitur. It is self-contradictory by definition. God cannot violate his own nature. Besides, how would you comprehend such a contradictory thing if it somehow were able to be done? You wouldn't know it, and your proof would be useless since you couldn't understand it. Besides, it can't be done anyway.
Dan: Why not?
Matt: Can you violate your own nature? Can you will yourself to be bigger than the sun?
Dan: No, but if there is a god, I'd expect him to exist outside of logic.
Matt: Perhaps, but not against logic since He created it.
Dan: If he created logic, why can't He do things that run against it?
Matt: If God created the universe and everything in it, then he created it out of his own nature. The design and natural laws had to originate in His mind. Therefore, it will have His characteristics woven into it: logic, physics, etc. These are all reflections of God's awesome creative character. Also, since God is self-sufficient, He cannot be self-contradictory. Otherwise, He could not sustain Himself. Therefore, He cannot violate His own nature.
Dan: So? Is he limited to the things he built into the universe? Isn't he omnipotent?
Matt: Yes . . .
Dan: Why can't he act against His own universe?
Matt: He could. He could destroy the entire universe. But He chooses not to.
Dan: What a crock. Just like I could stomp the earth and crush all armies with a wave of my hand. I just choose not to. Your argument isn't valid.
Matt: Why? Just because God doesn't choose to do something He has the power to do, it does not mean He does not exist. After all, does it prove that you do not exist if you choose not to do something you could do? If you choose not to clap your hands right now, does that mean you do not exist? Of course not.
Dan: [no response]
Matt: Think about this. God choosing to not exercise His will in something is the same as you choosing not to exercise belief in a god. You could, but you just don't. Both are a lack of action. So, how can you complain against God for not moving according to your criteria when you choose to not move at all in belief in Him?
At this point, the conversation ended . . .
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 218 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2020 2:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:33 PM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 215 of 794 (876887)
05-30-2020 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
05-29-2020 7:09 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
quote:
It takes two to make a connection. God speaks to all yet only a few hear His voice.
It may take two to make a connection but it seems that God is falling down on his part there.
quote:
This is not His fault unless you claim that His goal should have been to save everybody, free will be damned.
If I’m trying to communicate with a deaf person it’s my job to try to make myself understood. If I don’t make my best efforts that’s my fault. Free will has nothing to do with it.
quote:
Whose fault is that? Is God at fault because you somehow cannot hear Him?
Obviously. How could it be anyone else’s? God supposedly has the capability, so if he doesn’t use it that’s his decision.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-30-2020 1:53 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 12:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 794 (876888)
05-30-2020 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
05-30-2020 1:30 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
If so, God would be forced to fix what He broke, which makes no sense. The whole point is that it is WE who must use our free will to fix what was broken, regardless of Who broke it.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 2:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 217 of 794 (876889)
05-30-2020 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
05-30-2020 1:53 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
quote:
If so, God would be forced to fix what He broke, which makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. If God broke it, fixing it is his responsibility.
quote:
The whole point is that it is WE who must use our free will to fix what was broken, regardless of Who broke it.
And that sounds like a complete fraud. The whole point is for us to put our trust in men - many of whom are obviously dishonest.
No, I’m not buying that scam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 05-30-2020 1:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 218 of 794 (876890)
05-30-2020 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
05-29-2020 7:09 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Phat writes:
God speaks to all
Self evidently he does not. I tend to know when people are talking to me.
yet only a few hear His voice.
Certainly few hear a voice. And that includes the majority of those that believe in him. They have a one way conversation.
This is not His fault unless you claim that His goal should have been to save everybody, free will be damned.
He wasn't very particular about free will when he impregnated Mary, blinded Paul, raised Lazarus, fed 5,000 and resurrected himself was he? He's pretty bloody forward when he wants to be.
You think god actually talks to you. If he does, in your terms, he's violated your free will and he's not acting the same with the guy next door. He's discriminating.
I've no idea why you thought it worth posting the rest of your post.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 219 of 794 (876910)
05-30-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Phat
05-29-2020 7:07 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Phat writes:
Just because I take a stand on belief to the exclusion of doubt does not portray infallibility.
Of course it does. Why else would you refuse to question your conclusions except that you think you're infallible?
Phat writes:
I might claim that you see science logic as tentatively infallible...
That argument does not work at all, for the reason I have given: Science does NOT refuse to question itself. Science is ALL ABOUT questioning itself.
Phat writes:
... even though it has no ability to measure the supernatural.
Science has all kinds of ability to measure anything you can think of. If you come up with some method of measuring the supernatural, science will be glad to give it a try. But you wouldn't accept science's results anyway, would you? You'd stick with your beliefs because you think you're infallible.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 12:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 220 of 794 (876911)
05-30-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
05-29-2020 7:09 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Matt: Why is it that you do not believe in God?
Dan: Because there is no evidence that he exists.
Blah blah blah blah....
Did you get that garbage from a Jack Chick tract?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 05-29-2020 7:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 12:16 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 794 (877003)
06-01-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
05-30-2020 1:30 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
PaulK writes:
If I’m trying to communicate with a deaf person it’s my job to try to make myself understood. If I don’t make my best efforts that’s my fault. Free will has nothing to do with it.
  • Was the deaf person ever capable of hearing you or did they simply have their ears covered up?
    Rev 2:7 writes:
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
    Obviously God owes it to every person a means of hearing. But lets play with some common dogma and analogies, shall we?
    First off, why was there a war in Heaven?
    Rev 12:7-9 writes:
    7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
    It has been my understanding that God created the angels and 1/3 of them chose autonomy over subjection to authority. God never created Lucifer as evil and autonomous, however. Ostensibly that angel had an "ear". It also had a brain and a will.
    God supposedly has the capability, so if he doesn’t use it that’s his decision.
    Indeed. Everything is His decision. Perhaps one can argue that it was His decision to allow us to make our decision(s).
  • Did God create Lucifer with the ability to rebel and seek autonomy? If so, is it still God's fault? And what court could possibly indict Him? He who is without sin cast the first stone. The court would not possess a moral high ground.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2020 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 224 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2020 12:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 222 of 794 (877004)
    06-01-2020 12:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
    05-30-2020 12:33 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    ringo writes:
    Did you get that garbage from a Jack Chick tract?
    Actually it was Matt Slick and CARM. I was just adding fool to the fire

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 223 of 794 (877005)
    06-01-2020 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 219 by ringo
    05-30-2020 12:27 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    ringo writes:
    Why else would you refuse to question your conclusions except that you think you're infallible?
    Maybe because I believe that He is infallible.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:27 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-01-2020 12:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 224 of 794 (877006)
    06-01-2020 12:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
    06-01-2020 12:13 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    quote:
    Was the deaf person ever capable of hearing you or did they simply have their ears covered up?
    In the analogy they are actually deaf. They aren’t trying to avoid hearing, they just can’t.
    quote:
    Obviously God owes it to every person a means of hearing. But lets play with some common dogma and analogies, shall we?
    On the understanding that I reserve the right to say that dogma makes no sense.
    quote:
    First off, why was there a war in Heaven?
    Probably because pagan ideas crept into Christianity, and Christians misunderstood older scripture.
    Seriously we are already at the point where dogma doesn’t make sense. Why would there be a war in heaven? Is God mismanaging things so badly that one third of the angels - who are all perfectly aware that God exists - rebel? Or is it intentional on God’s part?
    Do angels even have free will? That’s something I’ve seen denied. If they don’t then your question becomes problematic - but if they do then free will is just fine with knowing God exists,
    quote:
    Indeed. Everything is His decision. Perhaps one can argue that it was His decision to allow us to make our decision(s).
    A decision of which men to worship? Seriously we aren’t talking about our decisions here.
    quote:
    Did God create Lucifer with the ability to rebel and seek autonomy? If so, is it still God's fault? And what court could possibly indict Him? He who is without sin cast the first stone. The court would not possess a moral high ground.
    There is considerably more to it than that. Assuming - for the sake of argument that Lucifer did rebel. Did God create Lucifer such that Lucifer would inevitably rebel? If God is all he’s cracked up to be that’s the way it would have to be. Did Lucifer rebel because he had a bad character? Whose fault would that be? If Lucifer did not have a bad character why would he rebel? As Lucifer’s creator and direct superior God has to at least take a good part of the responsibility. Was it by mistake or design?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 221 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 12:13 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 226 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 1:58 PM PaulK has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 225 of 794 (877009)
    06-01-2020 12:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
    06-01-2020 12:17 PM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    Why else would you refuse to question your conclusions except that you think you're infallible?
    Maybe because I believe that He is infallible.
    No, that doesn't work. Even IF your God was infallible, you would also have to believe that you could infallibly understand Him.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 12:17 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 227 by Phat, posted 06-01-2020 2:04 PM ringo has replied

      
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