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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 794 (876701)
05-26-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
05-25-2020 12:25 PM


Truth Honesty & Creativity
ringo writes:
What does it actually MEAN for somebody to "be" the truth?
While we are considering that question, I'll throw in another: Why do people lie and deceive? What is the purpose for lies? Is there a conservative truth and a liberal truth? Is truth defined on a spectrum? To me, somebody who is the truth has no lies or deceit in them.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 05-25-2020 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 05-26-2020 5:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2020 11:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 197 of 794 (876702)
05-26-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
05-26-2020 8:44 AM


Re: Gatekeepers
jar writes:
Think Phat, really try it. You might even like it.
Would a loving father let his child in the house?
Sure. Even if you screwed up.
But what of his adult son who defied his every ideal?
And lets add a scrip for fuel to this topic:
Matt 12:46-50 writes:
While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."
NKJV
FYI, I am thinking. I may take a nap soon and then wake up, make some coffee, and think again. What's your daily routine?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 05-26-2020 8:44 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 198 of 794 (876720)
05-26-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
05-26-2020 8:48 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Phat writes:
Why do people lie and deceive? What is the purpose for lies?
There are many purposes for lies, some good, some bad, but that has nothing to do with people "being" the truth.
Phat writes:
To me, somebody who is the truth has no lies or deceit in them.
That doesn't make much sense. Why don't you just SAY he's honest?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 05-26-2020 8:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 199 of 794 (876738)
05-26-2020 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
05-26-2020 8:48 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
quote:
Why do people lie and deceive?
Perhaps you should ask that question about the apologists you promote here. I can’t call it anything other than promotion because you’re certainly not interested in discussing what they say. Perhaps because you know that they are engaged in deception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 05-26-2020 8:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 05-27-2020 7:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 200 of 794 (876770)
05-27-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
05-26-2020 11:47 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
honestly? No (at least in the case of Isaiah. I discern that he is honest. I do see a bit of a promotional aspect to his personality, and I do see that he is zealous, but I dont think he is lying. He has had experiences with the supernatural (or unexplained realm) and I have had them. They make no sense to the rational mind, and they are objectively unverifiable as far as I know....but I believe they happen.
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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2020 11:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 12:26 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 201 of 794 (876775)
05-28-2020 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
05-27-2020 7:06 PM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
quote:
honestly? No (at least in the case of Isaiah. I discern that he is honest.
He shouldn’t be citing Isaiah at all, since he’s supposedly trying to establish that Moses had knowledge that he shouldn’t. Isaiah was not written by Moses.
He’s also repeating a standard apologetic falsehood equating a circle with a sphere (hint: a disc-shaped workd would be a circle) - and ignoring the fact that the whole thing is poetry. The Job reference he follows up with is even clearer that it isn’t referring to a sphere.
Then again we have his clear misrepresentation of Genesis 1, and the whole framing of the episode. Does it really make sense to argue which myth is more accurate? When interpreted literally? Does it really make sense to avoid the issue that the science doesn’t support the idea that any of them are accurate? If he’s looking for hidden science the story he is trying to validate should be the first place to look - not going off to look at things written by other authors, hundreds of years apart. If that’s even relevant, it should be well down the list - after trying to establish the authorship and sources of the original account.
So no, this is not honest at all. It is not an honest investigation, even without the obvious dishonesty in the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 05-27-2020 7:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 3:16 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 794 (876777)
05-28-2020 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by PaulK
05-28-2020 12:26 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
You didn't click my link. I'm talking about Isaiah Saldivar, not the other guy talking about the book of Isaiah

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 12:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:49 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 203 of 794 (876778)
05-28-2020 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
05-28-2020 3:16 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Well, no I didn’t expect you to start talking about someone else entirely. I guess I should have expected the diversion. Your continued attempts to cover up dishonesty among apologists does you no credit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 3:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 204 of 794 (876779)
05-28-2020 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
05-28-2020 3:16 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
Anyway, does this Isaiah Saldivar offer any rational arguments that you’d care to discuss? If so, let’s hear them. I’m getting tired of being told to watch videos you won’t even talk about. It’s just a pointless waste of my time and contrary to the purpose of this forum.
If you won’t talk about them don’t post them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 3:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by dwise1, posted 05-28-2020 4:02 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:30 AM PaulK has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 205 of 794 (876780)
05-28-2020 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by PaulK
05-28-2020 3:49 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
I’m getting tired of being told to watch videos you won’t even talk about. It’s just a pointless waste of my time and contrary to the purpose of this forum.
If you won’t talk about them don’t post them.
It is possible that this is a replay of Phat's great enthusiasm from watching that anti-atheist, anti-Muslim, anti-Truth propaganda hack job, God is Not Dead. It had the desired propaganda effect of firing him up, but when called upon to present or discuss any details of the movie's arguments, he completely fell apart and was incapable of doing either.
These videos may well be yet another situation of emotional and fallacious appeals to prejudices that have no rational basis. He knows that he likes watching them and they get him fired up, but he cannot tell us why nor discuss any of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:49 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:18 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 794 (876784)
05-28-2020 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by dwise1
05-28-2020 4:02 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
I will admit that different world views DO come into play here. You know all too well the behavioral patterns of fired-up evangelicals, and a new wave of them is being recruited(by the Holy Spirit, we will claim) in our current day and age due to anxieties over Covid-19 and the twilight of the American Empire in light of Chinas ascendancy onto the global stage. jar would claim that *we* as a country are still very wealthy and capable of being a global player, and that as responsible citizens (nevermind Christians) we can decide our future fate at the ballot box, but I see challenges and potential problems. The young evangelical movement is genuine and passionate. Intellectuals may scoff at the whole "casting out devils" part of the agenda, but I've seen evidence of it personally and won't question it to the point of doubt. That is a strategy of the enemy and not mine. I should have realized by now that bringing this stuff up here at EvC will never be an argument that I can win, but I stand by my beliefs and respect Isaiah for his ability to explain to Christians a practical and experience-based proof that the supernatural does in fact exist and that the modern church needs to sanctify themselves and prepare for a massive move of God in the coming months and years...however long we have on this planet.
David, you know that I will never convince many of you here, nor is that even really my intention. If the God Whom I believe in is real and if Jesus Christ is living through us and is actively involved then He is not preparing us to simply stay on this planet and rebuild a globalist, inclusive world that takes care of its own. He is calling us to awaken people into receiving Him and preparing us for the inevitable judgment and transformation of His people versus the ones who simply refuse to accept Him.
My goal (in this topic anyway) is to make a case that our days are in fact numbered here on earth and that a global secular-based government will in fact happen at some point and that it won't be the final answer. Isaiah is very good at the discernment of scripture, and this is an issue we can argue about...what scripture really means and whether or not the Bible is more than simply another ancient book of religion.
We here at EvC have discussed some basic points of contention between an evangelical charismatic based faith and literalist interpretation vs a more seemingly balanced reality-based approach to scripture and to the calling of a loving individual regarding future responsibility towards one's fellow man.
Perhaps instead of accusing me of simply pushing "lying apologists" at you, you can challenge me on my role in life, future events, who to elect and who not to elect, and whether or not humans will finally transcend this "psychological fantasy" or whether the fantasy itself is turning out to be patently real.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by dwise1, posted 05-28-2020 4:02 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 05-28-2020 12:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 207 of 794 (876785)
05-28-2020 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by PaulK
05-28-2020 3:49 AM


Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
PaulK writes:
Anyway, does this Isaiah Saldivar offer any rational arguments that you’d care to discuss? If so, let’s hear them. I’m getting tired of being told to watch videos you won’t even talk about. It’s just a pointless waste of my time and contrary to the purpose of this forum.
First of all, who are you to frame the purpose of this forum? And if its a waste of your time go mow the lawn or do the dishes. Moving on, I feel that Isaiah makes a solid case for the reality of spiritual warfare. As far as evidence goes, the evidence that I once experienced is experienced by many people today but unless and until you yourself develop a hunger for God, you will simply sit on the sidelines watching it all and will remain skeptical and untransformed or delivered.
I have never personally received a deliverance for anything (any demon or assignment) oppressing me, but it likely will happen one of these days. I don't seek it...I seek Jesus Christ and to know Him better. I enjoy some of our conversations, but when the Bible speaks clearly to me regarding the perfection of love and truth being made man and after having to suffer and die making a way for the rest of us, I become rather uninterested in logic-based arguments that critique scripture, attempt to dismantle the Living Word and reduce seekers to skeptics.
Add by Edit: Here is a Bible question for you:
  • Who is known as the deceiver of the brethren? What are this characters methods as written?
    Edited by Phat, : added question

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 3:49 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 208 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 10:33 AM Phat has replied
     Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2020 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    Message 208 of 794 (876786)
    05-28-2020 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
    05-28-2020 10:30 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    Phat writes:
    but unless and until you yourself develop a hunger for God, you will simply sit on the sidelines watching it all and will remain skeptical and untransformed or delivered
    And there you go again. Why does god only talk to some people and not others?

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:30 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 209 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:46 AM Tangle has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 209 of 794 (876788)
    05-28-2020 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 208 by Tangle
    05-28-2020 10:33 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    Tangle writes:
    Why does god only talk to some people and not others?
    I would personally reframe the question.
  • Does God (Jesus Christ) only talk to some people and not others?
    And my answer would then be no.
    And then at the risk of being called out for preaching, I would explain why I believe that Jesus Christ talks to everyone. He really does, you know.
    Edited by Phat, : entering preaching mode

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 10:33 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 212 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2020 1:23 PM Phat has replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 210 of 794 (876789)
    05-28-2020 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
    05-28-2020 10:30 AM


    Re: Truth Honesty & Creativity
    quote:
    First of all, who are you to frame the purpose of this forum?
    Someone who has a basic clue. Discussion IS what it’s here for.
    Try reading the Forum Guidelines, for instance:
    Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
    quote:
    I feel that Isaiah makes a solid case for the reality of spiritual warfare.
    I’m sure it’s a really great excuse.
    quote:
    ... but when the Bible speaks clearly to me regarding the perfection of love and truth being made man and after having to suffer and die making a way for the rest of us, I become rather uninterested in logic-based arguments that critique scripture, attempt to dismantle the Living Word and reduce seekers to skeptics.
    Which just means that you pick out the things you like and throw out the rest of the Bible.
    Who is known as the deceiver of the brethren? What are this characters methods as written?
    I think you will find that phrase is not in the Bible. But let us note that you have been promoting deceivers. So which side have you been working for - the God of Truth, or the Lord of Lies?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by Phat, posted 05-28-2020 10:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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