When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?

Another clear fact is that there has consistently been a concerted effort to *prove* them wrong. Why is it that throughout history (and I don't have stats on this but stand by it) the Bible and Jesus Christ have been challenged and attacked more than any other man or any other religious book....as if the whole motive is to expose Jesus as fallible and the Bible as an edited and redacted product of men. If you can strip the Divinity out of Jesus(which you cant) and out of the Bible, you have reduced the very Creator of the Universe into an unknowable concept and a character in many books.If you teach people to throw Him away, you will be judged for this at some point in your future. God is our judge and will have perfect knowledge of all we do and could have done.

Hopefully, both of those things are true.

Both of what things? What two specific points are you hoping will be true?

I hope that I can teach folk to throw all the God(s) and god(s) away and that I will be judged for that at some point in my future.

You don't have stats on it because it's bullshit.

In any debate, each side seeks to frame the argument. In so doing, they often quote each other and are usually accused by their opponent of quoting out of context or misrepresenting the opponent's position, at which point the opponent stands up and restates his position while dismissing his opponent's position. Its what debates and discussions are all about. Thus as I quote you, the audience will see my line of reasoning and how I use your quotes. Let them decide if I am misrepresenting your position or whether you are simply frustrated that the argument is not framed according to your liking or preference. Are you thus saying that a GOD is incapable of communing with humanity in any way shape or form and giving us a smidgeon of an idea about His character? Yet you claim to have actually read the Bible. Does the book (or books) tell us to throw God away?Why does Jesus say the following two things (among others) to His Disciples:
1) Is Jesus suggesting that He teaches not in His own name but in the name of the One who sent Him? Shall we throw that one away? It appears that the thing we are to throw away is our own life rather than Him or God. If jar teaches in the name of logic, reason, and reality is that not simply jar teaching in his own understanding?And again note the exchange with Peter. If we throw God away, how can we be mindful of the things of God? If we walk in logic, reason, and reality (as we objectively measure it) and place God in a box along with Ganesh, loki, and the Teletubbies, how can we be mindful of the things of God without declaring that we ourselves are all the "god" that will ever be?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

And you have no stats to back up your position either. Saying that something is bullshit is a positive truth claim. You have simply decided that your "belief" is objective evidence and that the opposing positions have none. You basically teach that the characters in the book are limited to the book, pointing out the "obvious objective reality" of your claim.The Word was the word long before the Torah or the KJV were even written....indeed long before humans could conceive of writing.Can you prove to me that what I just said is BS?

I haven't stated any position. No it isn't. It's exactly the opposite. It's a lack-of-truth claim.Lack of truth is the default. Nothing is true until shown to be true. Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that YOUR position has no substance. That has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about here. We're talking about your claim that Christians are persecuted more than anybody else. More bullshit. See above. I don't need to prove that there's no Loch Ness Monster. You need to prove that there is one.

You really can't read or comprehend anything can you?The issue is not God but humans Phat. We have covered this very point a Brazillion times yet you never seem to learn or refuse to learn.the question is "How can humans know they are communing with God?"Stop playing "STUPIDO" Phat.

And yet again you reframe the issue and totally ignore my questions.

What ignored question did you ask that in anyway relates to anything I have ever said?Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Specifically? There are not because my questions become judged within the framework of your belief.

What ignored question did you ask that in anyway relates to anything I have ever said?To what ignored questions that can even be remotely connected to the topic do you want me to respond?

, *sigh*Let me attempt to break down my overall thought process regarding these issues....please dont clutter it up by accusing me of one of many common memes, namely:
1) Word Salad
2) "Biblical Christian Fantasies
3) Misrepresenting Your Position (which I think I somewhat understand)
Are we clear?Phats Position. GOD exists. GOD is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ lives in me, though there is basically no way I can prove this belief to the satisfaction of any of the many arguments which at least you, I, and perhaps ringo engage in at EvC for the past 15 years or so. I was attempting to use scripture to back up my position. I have found over the years that you never seem to understand or represent my position in our many arguments but, rather, lump me in a category with "carny hucksters, Biblical Christians, and Apologists...at best. At worst you would never seem to grasp my position, choosing instead to dismiss it as word salad. Do you have any idea how insulting that is?Jars Position: (Gathered from prior quotes which you have made) You claim that I never can provide an answer. And dont label me as stupido. I know exactly what it is that I have experienced and I have an inner peace and confirmation when I pray that confirms my communion with God individually at least. To attempt to explain it or teach it corporately is another matter. In fact, I think I have stopped teaching it among people I know here in town and rather showing it through my actions and personality. As for you guys at the Forum, I struggle to make my points and frame the issue. Sometimes I think I waste too much time her, but our arguments serve a purpose in that they challenge my beliefs and allow me to think outside the apologetic box. Not that I feel comfortable doing that. You say I refuse to learn. I say that I disagree with what you teach or what I perceive as your teaching. And I can agree with this. I cant teach people what to believe (some say I shouldnt even try) but I can show them how to behave.What gets me about the EvC arguments is the claim that God is simply a character in a book and that the book is (or was) authored,edited, redacted and taught by men and men alone.Im trying to use the book itself to show otherwise, but in this instance I run up against logic, reason, and reality. My opponents demand evidence, which I dont have apart from my behavior towards them(you,ringo,tangle,etc etc) so here we are.Then, for EvC context, lets throw in the decades long arguments which you(seemingly the rest of EvC who are either atheists, secular humanists, or Episcopalian Curmudgeons ) had with our suspended member Faith. I will say publically that Faith was intelligent yet very stubborn and dogmatic. She claimed to be a believer yet would not even listen to or argue with me...she always thought she knew better, but I was unconvinced. GDR was more of a wise Christian, and I recently watched a video he sent me with NT Wright which further nourished my world view. GDR is an example of a commu8nal and cooperative Christian in that we can disagree and yet remain agreeable as to the central focus which we share which is Jesus Christ. Faith never could do that as her issue was Faiths proclamation that what she represented was the proper teaching---end of argument. She refused to even consider the evidence based arguments regarding science, critical thinking, and clear logic. GDR is much friendlier in this area, even though Tangle often calls believers nutters. So we have Believers, (GDR,Faith and Phat) Onetime Believers(ringo and Tangle) and then we have jar.
(you, for the record) What is a guy supposed to do with that accusation? For the record, whenever I mention God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit I am not referring to inner characters living at Fosters. I attempted to use scripture to point out that Jesus told Peter that The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter who Jesus actually was. You ignored that, perhaps because you and ringo believe that the characters of the Holy Trinity are limited to the book and are not a part of your perceivable reality. I dont know what any of you think really. If we were sittiong down for coffee face to face it would become clearer what our respective positions were, but we are limited to an exchange of written words and I must confess that it is a stretch and a challenge for me to take the time to sit down as I am doing now and actually think about what I am typing. CS Lewis and his buddy JR Tolkien were likely quite skilled at it.
I recently read Peter Hitchens's book(well, I heard it on my Audible) and just now google a YouTube video which I will share in honor of Tangle's other topic, Hitch Is Dead. For some, the same could be said of Jesus. And the whole topic in which I am replying was started by Lammy and addressed the absurdities and hypothetical questions regarding the worldview of Biblical Christians regarding Endtimes Theology. (for the record)
I am expecting jars quick reply to be "What does this rambling diatribe have to do with the topic?" to which I will reply that it really doesnt...its all about Phat, baby. The issue is about the characters in the book and whether or not they exist outside the book and outside our individual and collective human minds. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

You might ask why I revived your old topic many years later, and I will state that I did it because I searched our archives for an existing endtimes topic rather than starting a new one. The times we live in are worrisome, though humanity has endured many such crises. Do you have any comments regarding this old topic, religion in general, or your own (hopefully positive) world view? How is your nutrition going, by the way? You were always an inspiration to me regarding healthy choices, and I did not mean to disrespect you in any way by choosing your old topic to dredge up.
In addition, the reason that I posted the Hitchens Debate was entirely spontaneous...I had not yet even watched the debate, but it did apply to this topic. Christopher mentioned last days Theology around the 1-hour 22-minute mark.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.