Morality without God is impossible

There is no "universal morality that flows from God". In fact, the painstaking process of humanity figuring out what is moral and what is not (remember, not long ago almost everyone - including Bary Obama! - thought that marriage between two people of the same sex was immoral) has been only made more difficult by that human invention called religion.

I've gone around that with Tangle so if you like you can read what I have posted there.

...Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This shows you still don't understand Maslow's pyramid.I'm not attempting to say that intellect reverses any evolution.
But it does build on top of it.Humans definitely do have that 3 billion years of evolution still inside them. That's the base of the pyramid - instinctual needs. Like food, water and shelter.
But... if we meet those needs, then our intellect is free to focus on other things.If we meet enough/most/all instinctual needs (the top of Maslow's pyramid) then our intellect is extremely free from those 3 billion years of evolutionary drives - because those drives are already met!
All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone. And are no longer held back by being focused on instinctual needs.What is the 3 billion years of evolution "button" that makes people choose to play darts? Or any other form of entertainment?
There is none.
These choices are freely made, intellectually, without regard to drives such as procreation or survival.
Because, if one is choosing to play darts, their "3 billion year old buttons" driving them to procreate and/or survive... are already pressed and already met!
No one chooses to play darts while running for their life from a mad gunman.
But, if you're safe, and out with pals, and there's no pressing need to have a baby... then you can freely choose to play darts or baseball or video games or collect stamps or any other form of entertainment.Such choices are choices made (or, at least, "can be made") without regard to procreation and/or survival.
Not because procreation and survival are "reversed." But simply because those needs have already been met (Maslow's pyramid.) 3 billion years ago, reason did not exist on this planet.
An ant cannot choose a form of "entertainment" regardless of how well their needs for procreation/survival are met. Their pyramid simply does not go up that high.
Reason does not exist for an ant, and didn't exist for us (or any other living thing on earth) 3 billion years ago.But now, reason exists for us.
Now, our pyramid does go that high.
Now, once our instinctual needs/drives are met - we are free to focus on wants/desires/choices/decisions that are based on reason/intellect and not based on instinctual needs/drives/buttons like procreation or survival.

Stile: All that's left is our intellect - and we are free to focus on what we want - different for everyone.
Serpant: Hey buddy. humans are all that there is. You will be as gods. Don't listen to myths. Stile: Errr.thanks for the advice, but why am I talking to a snake? Sounds like I'm delusional!
Snake: Of course you are. Evidence always shows us the way. We are all unique and different and we all have a right to exist. Its how I convinced the Big Guy to even let me hang out here. Stile: Nice try, Phat. What is the point of your analogy though?Humor.

Some use their intellect for evil and confusion.
Others for good and honesty.Which do you choose?

I agree that morality has evolved over time, but I would see it as a growing understanding of a morality that always has been there.We would all agree that slavery is wrong, and we would all agree that in the past in many cultures slavery was accepted as the norm and not seen as wrong.We agree that it is wrong now but was it wrong then? Was slavery ok in it's time, but wrong now, or has slavery always been wrong?

I'm going to go with always wrong, I think if you asked any slave at any time and they would say IT'S FUCKING WRONG!

Certainly, we today see slavery as immoral. With help from retroactive morality, we can say that in accord with our enlightened intellectual development today, slavery has always been immoral.Unfortunately, back in 1st century BCE Rome, this was not a prevalent point of view. Slavery was just the worst status assigned to people by the various classes, castes, in society. Just another reality that had always been there and no one questioned. Slavery, was once seen as useful for the elite and therefore to the benefit of society.Different strokes for different folks. That is the very definition of relative morality. There is no hint of any objective moral guidance, biologically innate or otherwise, showing in the decisions of either era. Yes.

I agree completely. So then, if they were wrong then how do we know we are right now? If it has always been wrong then there is a morality that exists that isn't simply the result of human evolution. It would have had to exist outside of human thought.Sure, it has evolved over time in our thought processes, but slavery is wrong, has always been wrong and always will be wrong.

On the basis of the instincts which underlie what we call morality I would say that it was always wrong.In principle it might be possible to come up with a version that wasn’t. Some people point to the situation of domestic slaves in the Roman Empire, ignoring the abuses even they had to suffer as well as the situation of the majority of slaves at that time - claiming that it was better than the situation in the US. Absent the racism it really wasn’t much better. Of course the people who are doing that are trying to whitewash the Bible.

We don't, we're quite literally making it up as we go along. Modern Western democracies believe that slavery is wrong because it harms a section of society and we've declared all men equal.But we only go so far with that. We allow billionaires and poverty to exist in the same society even though we believe in that equality.Other theistic societies are not even that evolved, they still suborn women, allow FGM, persecute and kill homosexuals etc.Some societies persecute minority religious groups and don't allow free speech or even dress. There is no morality that exists outside human thought, it's all a human invention, but it is all built around the concept that it's wrong to harm others. That's an evolved social trait and we stick to it only when it suits us.There's no guarantee that Western values will beat all others, improve, and spread in an enlightened way around the globe, but those harmed will always also feel wronged and that's where morality comes from.
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What makes you think we are right now? Your view is rather arbitrary to be insisting you are right.In the same way we look at ancient Rome, judging today's morality can best be made by others some 2000 years hence. The future may condemn our view of slavery as too limited in scope and needed to include extreme poverty. Who knows?You cannot say your present morality is right in all things for all time. You cannot say your present morality is proper, right, humane or good. That judgement lies in future societies to decide the same way we judge the ancients today.By future standards your present morality may be abhorrently barbaric. That slavery is wrong now and always has been is our present morality speaking. The ancient romans didn't think slavery was immoral then or ever. The difference is the evolution of human thought and morality.You are seeking an entry for your gods to intervene. There appears to be only the evolution of humanity. From today's perspective this is correct. From the perspective of Caesar, this is way wrong. And Caesar was no more disconnected from humanity than you are right now. His view was sanctioned by the society he grew up in. His view was right ... back then.Our morality evolved. There never was, apparently, any divinely set principles of conduct in the ape lineage or before. We have to learn our morality the hard way by stumbling blindly through existence and making it up as we go.

Yeah. A no-brainer. I would put my morals up against any Christian on this site. Am I perfect? No. But morally I am pretty damn solid.

THAT, right there, says it all!