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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm transferring this discussion between GDR and me to a new thread because it's off topic on the thread where I wanted to focus on issues in the justice system. The following is GDR's last post, which I intend to come back to.
Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that: Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that Subtitle: Re: bias/feelings over evidence rule here, buttressed by more bias/feelings over evidence: Message 165 Faith writes:
OK Faith. Let's look at the facts and evidence. Judging by your feelings versus by the facts/evidence. How often that happens and how often people who THINK they are judging by the facts and evidence are not.This is from Deuteronomy 7: quote:Contrast this from Matthew 5 and the Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. quote:How can you possibly contrast those two Biblical quotes and then claim that the nature of God can be seen in both quotes? And again in Deuteronomy 20 quote:Contrast this again with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5 quote:Once again. The views of the nature of God that we sometimes, but not usually, see in the OT are completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. In Deuteronomy we are shown a cruel vengeful deity, very similar to the deities of their pagan neighbours, as opposed to the loving merciful God in the NT. Here are some quotes from the book of Joshua. quote: quote:Again contrast this from Luke 6 quote:This is again the words of Jesus who was a 1st century Jew living in a 1st century Jewish world under the brutal and total dominance of the Romans. They were in the promised land but still in excile. This is from Leviticus 24 quote:What does Jesus tell us in Matthew 5 quote:Jesus actually says, as He does in other places that the early prophets got it wrong. This from Numbers 15 quote:What goes Jesus say in Luke 6 quote:Jesus even tells us to pray to be forgiven as we forgive others. I could go on but that is certainly enough. I am afraid Faith that I do not understand how your idea of God’s justice can be so different from one period to the next. I believe in the God as personified in Jesus who is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. The belief that you can harmonize beliefs in an inerrant Bible with the life and teaching of Jesus is just plainly obviously wrong. I’ll go with Jesus. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Contrast this from Matthew 5 and the Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount.
quote: How can you possibly contrast those two Biblical quotes and then claim that the nature of God can be seen in both quotes?
I'm already tired just trying to make this much of a case. I know it's futility with you for one thing, but for another I need to get some sleep so I'll have to come back to it later. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2
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In the times we are in, we will be judged by how we treat others more than how we interpret the Logos interpretations of "traditional Protestanism". The pandemic is not Gods method of executing justice either on the "demonic Left" nor the "Authoritarian Right"...although leaders may be judged or held responsible. It is the daily tasks of each of us that are important. Will we hoard the toilet paper or will we cooperate and share what we have with others? Will we become selfish and clannish or will we help the least of these? As Christians, you GDR and I shouldnt even be arguing. We should lead by example. I try my best at work. Hopefully my comment is not off topic. Do get some rest Faith. And we might be judged by how we present scripture to others. Just a thought.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No idea why you felt that belonged on this thread but of course it's always true that what we do is the important thing --- if we're born again, otherwise it counts for nothing. Well, not nothing, I'm sure the LORD judges between the unbelievers too, but that's a completely different judgment than for the believers. Or am I missing your point?
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
I would have preferred this in Faith and Belief or Bible Study as I think that would narrow the whole thing down. Maybe you could move it there Phat.
Faith writes: Interesting. I suppose Jesus was a wimp when He went to the cross. I suppose He was a wimp when He stood up against every power group in His culture with His message of love, forgiveness and peace. Your God is Too Simple and a Wimp Besides I suggest that a deity that would sacrifice his follower in order to get revenge on those that don't follow him, while he remains safe and sound, would be a wimp. There are IMHO several problems with your scriptural understandings. You seem to draw a line between what is done by individuals and what is done by nations. I would simply point out that the nations are made up of individuals. When it was commanded supposedly by Yahweh that all men, women, children and all living things be killed it would be done by individuals. The Bible is a narrative of individual stories strung together as the Israelites worked out God’s nature, what He was doing and how this was to impact their lives. The whole narrative is a progressive understanding of God in the people of Israel that comes to climax or a fulfillment in the Jesus of the Gospels. The Israel story grew out of a world that was very war like, xenophobic and did not hold the value in human life in very high regard. The Israelis represented a smaller tribe that was continually battling for survival, and their whole idea of god was that their god would be stronger than the gods of their neighbours and that this god would lead them in battle in defeating their enemies. Gradually they became monotheistic but were still looking for a god that would give them victory. We can even see in the NT that this is what the disciples essentially expected Jesus to do. However we can see through the entire sweep of Jesus’ life and teaching that He was making it clear that He was editing and revising the OT Scriptures in a way that gave a different way of thinking about God. I would add though, that in doing that He did comb through the Hebrew texts to draw out the loving merciful God that He embodied. There aren’t only discrepancies between the OT and the NT. Let’s look at the OT. This quote is from 2 Kings 9:quote:OK, so here we see Jehu being commanded by Yahweh to destroy the house of Ahab in Jezreel. Later in chapter 10 we are told that Jehu faithfully carried out what he was told that Yahweh had commanded. quote:So Jehu has followed God’s command and slaughtered everyone in the house of Ahab so God is pleased with him, and Jehu is made king. But wait. When we go to the book of Hosea chap 4. quote:So which is it? The OT claims that Jehu was told by God to slaughter all of the house of Ahab but then later by a different prophet we are told by God that Jehu will be punished for doing what he was supposedly told to do. Let’s look at another example, starting in 2 Samuel 24. quote:Interestingly enough, later in the same chapter after obeying the word of the Lord, David is having trouble with his conscience. quote:It then gets even more complicated when we see later, still in 2 Samuel 24 that David repents from what the Lord told him to do and then the whole thing becomes totally inexplicable. God supposedly gives David 3 choices including 2 which would punish the people of Israel and 1 that would punish David. David chooses not to accept the punishment himself but agrees that God take it out on the people of Israel. quote:We the can now go back to what I said earlier that this was a progressive understanding of the nature and intent of Yahweh. The Hebrews were becoming more aware of this dark side of their understanding of Yahweh. They then came with a different take on things and started to transfer the blame away from Yahweh, and on to satan. They had begun to understand that Yahweh was not this angry, vindictive and war like deity that they had perceived Him to be. This is from 1 Chronicles 21. quote:What was in 2 Samuel an order from God is now in 1 Chronicles attributed to Satan. Their understanding of God was evolving and will continue to evolve through the Scriptures, as in the suffering servant in Isaiah, and through the latter prophets. As I said earlier, we can then see the fulfillment of all of that in the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus. It is all in the Bible. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We've been through this so many times I don't think I can even concentrate on it long enough to answer you rightly. But here goes the second attempt:
quote: A believer in Bible inerrancy, just as horrified as you at the scorched-earth judgment of these peoples, yet doesn't judge God for it by our limited perspective as you do despite the horror of it, but wants to know why the punishment is so dire so we can understand the mind of God. And what the theologians have put together is about how the heathen nations would have seduced Israel into their idolatrous sins if they had been allowed to live. For instance, they had all kinds of sexual rituals, both heterosexual and homosexual, as part of their worship of their demon gods, and at least one worshipped the god Molech by burning their babies alive in sacrifice. We know this because Israel DID NOT completely wipe out these peoples as commanded and their descendants DID seduce Israel into worshipping their demon gods and committing those sins. Another thing we learn from the theologians who have studied the stories in far greater detail than either you or I, is that God had allowed the sins of theise peoples to accumulate for hundreds of years before bringing judgment against them, all during the years when Israel was a slave in Egypt at least. God waits to bring judgment until their sins are "full," which is a principle related to the working of the Moral Law, which we also can learn about if we accept that the Bible is God's words, and otherwise can't learn anything except whatever our fallen little minds can tell us. If you trust the Bible to be God's word you might learn this sort of thing, might learn what wickedness is and why God abhors it, and what He wanted from His own people in contrast. Otherwise all you have is your own limited thoughts. Not that this will persuade you of course, you will still think your own thoughts superior to God's even if what I'm saying is true.
Contrast this again with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5
quote: Once again. The views of the nature of God that we sometimes, but not usually, see in the OT are completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. In Deuteronomy we are shown a cruel vengeful deity, very similar to the deities of their pagan neighbours, as opposed to the loving merciful God in the NT. Once a person judges God by his own paltry human feelings he's going to go on and on and on with the same judgment and there's no point in answering. You really think your thoughts are the righteous thoughts and mine are not and what can I possibly say to you about that? Nothing. I just have to accept the profane worldly judgment such a perspective dumps on me, cuz to the profane worldly mind you are right and I am wrong. Well I'm used to it by now. Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, not God the Father but God the Son, but there is no difference between their point of view. God the Father is as merciful and loving as Jesus is, and Jesus hates sin as much as the Father does, but Jesus came to save us from the consequences of the sins that are hated by God, AT THE COMMAND OF THE FATHER by the way, that God you hate, by dying for us in our place. You continue to refuse to believe or even understand what Jesus did on the cross for us, you trivialize it, put it beneath your merely human understanding of love, so you miss the greatness of God's love to us in that sacrifice. The Reformation brought out the singularity and fundamental importance of the meaning of the CROSS over all else, as the foundation for all else, for that love that in your hands is a puny counterfeit of God's. The Cross is the center of Christianity and you denigrate it. Well, again, you can't hear this, can you? I'm speaking into the void. You are just going to go on in this same vein, judging God by your little human feelings and thinking those superior to Him. But I guess I'll come back later and go through the futile theological dance yet another time. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Faith writes: I'm not though Faith. My whole post was that I am judging the belief in an inerrant Bible by the words of the Bible. I am not judging God at all. You are just going to go on in this same vein, judging God by your little human feelings and thinking those superior to Him. But I guess I'll come back later and go through the futile theological dance yet another time.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I know you don't think you are judging God, but you are.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
If it so clear then you have yet to tell me how you rationalize any of the clearly contradicting parts between the NT and the OT as well as within the OT itself.
I'd suggest that in understanding Scripture the way you do you are clearly judging Jesus and have found Him wanting. Edited by GDR, : typoHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's OK, GDR, I can't prove any of that to you.
Cheers.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
I wasn't asking you to prove it. I'm just asking how you personally are able to rationalize the contradictions in the different Biblical accounts.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There aren't any contradictions, GDR, a point I made already in the previous posts not to mention hundreds of others elsewhere..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Faith writes: ..and that is what you have always done. When shown obvious contradictions you simply say that they aren't without explaining how they aren't. There aren't any contradictions, GDR, a point I made already in the previous posts not to mention hundreds of others elsewhere..He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
quote: The ideology prevails, no matter what. You can’t get through the falseness, Faith is to closed up in her little box.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1702 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
GDR I already answered some of the contradictions. The God of both Old and New Testaments is the same God with different emphases and missions for the context. You won't accept that, there's nothing more to be said. We could go on into the familiar territory of what Jesus fulfilled in the OT that is no longer applicable to believers or we could get into the semantics of certain words, but what's the point? We've been here before and I'm sorry I'm so impatient but after years of arguing this I'm tired. If I get a second wind I'll come back to it and that sometimes happens. For now I'm sorry. I'm a believer in Biblical inerrancy and it serves me very very well. I love the God of both Testaments, He is the same God, not the one you have invented. My God is a fearsome Judge who sent His Son out of the deepest mercy and love, to save us from His own judgments, The God whose judgments you despise and therefore whose mercy of the Cross you also must despise though you fail to see this point. Again, I'm sorry. Maybe Tangle or Phat will come along to argue with you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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