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Author Topic:   How to feed and keep the animals on the Ark?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 151 of 165 (57614)
09-24-2003 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by allenroyboy
09-23-2003 1:43 AM


quote:
His publication list includes being author or co-author of more than twenty papers in non-creationary technical journals
Well, I did a pubmed search on Kevin L. Anderson, and it only showed one paper. I'm not actually sure if this is the same Kevin L. Anderson, either, because there could easily be many people by that name.
If he published twenty papers, it wasn't in any well-known professional publications, save one.
I also have to mention that to be a retiring active research scientist and having published only twenty papers is rather telling. My husband doesn't even have his PhD yet and he's published four.
Unless his papers tended to be very large projects which each took several years to complete, my guess is he wasn't a very productive scientist.
quote:
However, the new Director of the Van Andel Creation Research Center (VACRC), Dr. Kevin Anderson, is an active creationist and active research scientist who just retired from the USDA in Ames, Iowa.
I took a look at the webpage of the VACRC. Guess what I found?
One things is for certain; Dr. Anderson has left science behind in favor of religion.
quote:
CRS Statement of Belief
All members must subscribe to the following statement of belief:
1. The Bible is the written Word of God, and because it is inspired throughout, all its assertions are historically and scientifically true in the original autographs. To the student of nature this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths.
2. All basic types of living things, including man, were made by direct creative acts of God during the Creation Week described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since Creation Week have accomplished only changes within the original created kinds.
3. The great flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Flood, was an historic event worldwide in its extent and effect.
4. We are an organization of Christian men and women of science who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. The account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as one man and one woman and their subsequent fall into sin is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind. Therefore, salvation can come only through accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Anyway, this is really an irrelevant discussion.
It's just one scientist who has recently given up rational and rigorous scientific investigation in favor of a priori religious dogmatism.
This does not in any way make Creation 'science' a legitimate investigative method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by allenroyboy, posted 09-23-2003 1:43 AM allenroyboy has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 165 (57617)
09-24-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Rei
09-23-2003 2:00 AM


Didn't read ahead...
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-24-2003]

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 153 of 165 (57861)
09-25-2003 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
09-17-2003 6:49 AM


A reply to message #124 and #125 in this thread please, Allen.
Thanks.

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 Message 125 by nator, posted 09-17-2003 6:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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allenroyboy
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 165 (57999)
09-26-2003 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Rei
09-23-2003 2:00 AM


I contaced Bergma...:
"A google search will locate hundreds in 14 languages. I must admit I get tired of the endless name calling such as this. When you prove I have a large number of articles and publications they will go on to something else, trust me. It never ends. I found 3 of my articles on Ohiolink alone. See below. Now he will look for some other way to attack my person. See Doug's website (Revolution against Evolution --RaE) for several article I wrote about this approach." Jerry
Preclinical and clinical models of lung cancer chemoprevention. You, M; Bergman, G Hematology/oncology clinics of North America vol. 12, no. 5 (1998 Oct): 1037-53.
Detection of differentially expressed genes in mouse lung adenocarcinomas. Lin, L; Wang, Y; Bergman, G; Kelloff, G J; Lubet, R A; You, M Experimental lung research vol. 27, no. 3 (2001 Apr-May): 217-29.
Detection of genetic alterations in mouse lung adenocarcinomas by
two-dimensional gel electrophoresis. Liu, J; Gu, P; Bergman, G; Kelloff, GJ; et al. Experimental lung research vol. 26, no. 8 (2000 Dec): 651-8.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Randy
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 420
From: Cincinnati OH USA
Joined: 07-19-2002


Message 155 of 165 (58025)
09-26-2003 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by allenroyboy
09-26-2003 12:46 PM


quote:
I contaced Bergma...:
"A google search will locate hundreds in 14 languages. I must admit I get tired of the endless name calling such as this. When you prove I have a large number of articles and publications they will go on to something else, trust me. It never ends. I found 3 of my articles on Ohiolink alone. See below. Now he will look for some other way to attack my person. See Doug's website (Revolution against Evolution --RaE) for several article I wrote about this approach." Jerry
Preclinical and clinical models of lung cancer chemoprevention. You, M; Bergman, G Hematology/oncology clinics of North America vol. 12, no. 5 (1998 Oct): 1037-53.
Detection of differentially expressed genes in mouse lung adenocarcinomas. Lin, L; Wang, Y; Bergman, G; Kelloff, G J; Lubet, R A; You, M Experimental lung research vol. 27, no. 3 (2001 Apr-May): 217-29.
Detection of genetic alterations in mouse lung adenocarcinomas by
two-dimensional gel electrophoresis. Liu, J; Gu, P; Bergman, G; Kelloff, GJ; et al. Experimental lung research vol. 26, no. 8 (2000 Dec): 651-8.
These also seem to be the only three papers that show up on Medline for this particular G. Bergman. This is a very low number for such an alllegedly famous biological scientist. I don't know what the relevance of Bergman's lack of credentials has to this thread since it is Woodmorappe/Peczkis who wrote the bogus book on Noah's ark and whatever else his credentials may be it is clear to me that Woodmorappe/Peczkis knows virtually nothing about the practical aspects of caring for large numbers of large and small animals without the use modern technology.
Randy

This message is a reply to:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 156 of 165 (58029)
09-26-2003 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by allenroyboy
09-26-2003 12:46 PM


Thanks, Allen. That enabled me to find his web page, instead of just pages talking about him. Now I can see how well the claim of over a hundred publications in non-creationist journals stands up. He has published 383 papers. The vast majority of them are creationist - including foreign creationist publications! Of the rest? Most of them are about teaching (especially reading). Next most is psych. Then come cars, book collecting, metal detectors, etc. One is even just the archives of a forum. Some things that he claims to have published in, such as "The New England Correspondent", are only mentioned on the internet at his web page. Some sound like they might be scientific - such as the "American Scientific Affiliation Newsletter" or "CEN Tech J" - until you actually look at what they are. He even got two in a humanist magazine (a counterpoint). He loves speaking about things that he is completely inexperienced to talk about, such as a unified approach to particle physics. He has an article that advocates lying in court as part of "Theocratic War Strategy". He has an article praising Wernher Von Braun, who used slave labor back in Nazi Germany. Real medical articles? Articles that have to do with biology? These are the only ones:
216. The History and Evaluation of Noninvasive Medical Diagnostic Treatment and Research Technique. in Research Abstracts International, Ann Arbor: Univ. Microfilms, Vol. 17, Issue 3, 1991.
251. Genetic Function of Introns as a Means of Reducing Copying Errors. Ohio Journal of Science, 94(2): 25 1994.
299. Dyslexia. MENSA Bulletin. May 1996 p. 8-9 No. 396
312. Use of the Internet to Compare Select Gene Sequences of Various Living Organisms Partnership for the Advancement of Chemical Technology. Final Project Abstracts for 1997 p.5. (*note: I question the level of peer review in PACT)
337. and Ming You M.D. Ph.D. Models of Lung Cancer Chemoprevention.
Hematology/Oncology Clinics of North America. 12 (5): 1037-1049, Oct. 1998.
360. and J. Liu, P. Gu, G. Kelloff, C. Boone, M. You, Y. Wang. Detection of Genetic Alterations in Mouse Lung Adenocarcinomas by Two-Dimensional Gel Electrophoresis. Experimental Lung Research, 26(8):651-658, Dec. 2000.
369. and Lin Lin, Yian Wang, Gary J. Kelloff, Ronald A. Lubet, and Ming You. Detection of Differentially Expressed Genes in Mouse Lung Adenocarcinomas. Experimental Lung Research. 27:217-229, 2001.
Of course he expects to get critiqued after he says that, because when he says that, he just inadvertently encourages people to look at what he's actually published. He's only published 7 scientific papers! 3 of them were on the same subject (and had several co-authors). The only one that could possibly pertain to evolution is #251.
* - Berman's page is: Error | The Institute for Creation Research
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-26-2003]

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 157 of 165 (58273)
09-28-2003 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by nator
09-25-2003 7:55 PM


A reply to message #124 and #125 in this thread please, Allen.
Alternatively, an indication that you are currently too busy to reply at the moment would be nice.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
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Dralasite
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 165 (72073)
12-10-2003 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
09-01-2003 9:51 AM


may I point out an analogy ? (I know, the debate has gone past that subject but I wanted to give my own 2 cents! )
fishes in muddy waters are mostly like humans in a sand storm: try breathing during 40 days in a sandstorm without any kind of protection. Try also to feed yourself and sleep without shelter during that month of constant sandstorm.
of course there are camels who can survive sandstorm for a couple of days but imagine a 40 days sandstorm happening to animals (or humans) who never saw one in their lives?
these people and animals will be all dead in a couple of days (especially without shelter)...
another thing (which may have been pointed out perhaps) is that many marine species (tortoise for example) need to rest on solid ground, they can't stay for a year at sea...
I forgot: not only would the water be full of silt and dregs of all sort but also full of corpses from billions of creatures.
billions of corpses decaying at the same and clogging the water may have been a feast for some animals but most other would have been poisonned...
the seas must have been, at that time, a teeming soup of bacteria, an envirronment where few marine creatures could have survived...
we were talking about ventilating the ark? but most certainly the air outside must have even more hideous to breath than the air in the shit-clogged ark!
so, to go back to my analogy; the fishes were as likely to survive the flood as a naked human to survive 40 days of sandstorm in a sand desert filled with corpses. I call him dead before the corpses even begin to really stink...

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 165 (72099)
12-10-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Dralasite
12-10-2003 10:51 AM


All Wooden Ark?
While we are extending this thread ad infinum, could someone with shipbuilding knowledge please inform us of the physical possibilities of constructing an all wooden vessel 450 feet long (and to the other applicable dimensions) that could float without cracking in half.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Dralasite, posted 12-10-2003 10:51 AM Dralasite has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by zephyr, posted 12-11-2003 12:27 PM Abshalom has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 160 of 165 (72290)
12-11-2003 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Abshalom
12-10-2003 1:02 PM


Re: All Wooden Ark?
There was a thread less than 2 months ago where they went round and round over that very issue. If you show 60 days of threads it should be down there somewhere in the same section as this one.

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 Message 159 by Abshalom, posted 12-10-2003 1:02 PM Abshalom has replied

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 165 (72328)
12-11-2003 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by zephyr
12-11-2003 12:27 PM


Re: All Wooden Ark?
Thank you, Zeph, and sorry for unravelling this thread unnecessarily. BTW, I understand that until it was learned how to reinforce the keels and hulls with iron, a wooden vessel 450 feet long could not withstand the natural forces applied by the sea without cracking in half. Of course, I also understand that the physical properties of "gopherwood" remain a mystery.

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dominic_dice
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 165 (86957)
02-17-2004 10:18 AM


Which member of the Ark had AIDs then? Or was that created by Satan afterwards LOL.

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 163 of 165 (87071)
02-17-2004 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by allenroyboy
09-23-2003 1:43 AM


I created a minor list
Remember, it's not just the number of publications that's important. It's also how others in the field view those publications. Although not necessarily without problem the citation index (i.e. how many times other people have referenced your work) is often viewed as an indication as to the quality. I looked at some AIG 'geologists' and a few others and found the following:
I checked out 4 YEC scientists secular publications for their impact. I used the citation index as a relative measure of the importance of their work. For those who don't know, the citation index indicates how many other scientists reference your work. Referencing of work is one measure of its importance. I looked at John Baumgardner, Russ Humphreys, Jon Sarfati and Jan Peczkis. The results:
Tops: Easily John Baumgardner is one of the top of the YEC mentioned here in terms of his citation index. Interestingly, all of his well-cited articles use old earth time scales (with specific numbers!).
Russ Humphreys has a decent publication record, but relatively few citations.
Sarfati has 6 published articles and a total of 48 citations. Of those 48 citations, 35 come from a Nature article which lists him as co-author. A second paper was cited 6 times and the others 1-3 citations.
Peczkis has one paper with 12 citations, two with no citations and one with a single citation. His highly cited article is on the evolutionary development of dinosaur sizes.
Austin has 1 article that I could find with 0 citations. Wise has one article that is reasonably cited (25x), but nothing recent. Gentry has several well cited articles (>50 cites), but nothing recent of note.
Emil Silvestru who, according to AIG is a 'world expert' in karst has 10 publications in scientific journals, but none of those journals are tracked by the major scientific citation company ISI.
Dennis Englin who is listed as a Ph.D. geophysicist on AIG's website has no publications that I could find.
There are no details given on Graham Mortimer on the AIG site; however if it is Graham E. Mortimer then he has a strong publication record, but as near as I can tell he looks to be an old earth creationist based on the pubs listed under his name.
Andrew Snelling has a few pubs in minor journals. One article has been cited 12 times and the other 6 listings have between 0-3 citations.
Joachim Scheven has but a single publication from 1981 so far as I could tell and does not come up on a search in the ISI database.
Tas Walker draws a blank
Cheers
Joe Meert

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 165 (87341)
02-18-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
08-30-2003 7:15 PM


present calculations may need adjustment
It is amazing how bears can last for so many months, even having babies in the time they are not eating. Yet bears living where food is plentiful in winter will not hibernate. Seems to me it would have saved a lot of work to trigger a shut down mechanism in many of the animals. Once again there is no need to make science look foolish by trying to apply it against the Creator. Science is not God. Your application and understanding of it is also not God. Science is not only trying to misuse facts to belittle God.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 165 of 165 (87346)
02-18-2004 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by simple
02-18-2004 5:51 PM


You are restricted
This is, I believe, not a topic to which you are entitled to post.

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