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Author | Topic: Morality without God is impossible | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
By extension, you could say that the only important thing within the goal(s) of a belief are the actions generated. I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required. You are still conflating religion and reality Phat. In the various clubs a god is required. Seriously Phat. If it is a religion there is a God(s) or god(s) present. But in reality it is what actually happens, what is actually written, what is actually verifiable that is required.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality? LOL Sheesh Phat. How does a religion eliminate religion? Think Phat. Try to think. Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice. Do you think people are really so limited?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice. Do you think people are really so limited? Adding to the adage that women have a crayon box with 32 colors and men one with only 8 colors, could we say that religionists only have a Sharpie and White-out?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Too busy snapping the cuffs on him. Tell that to Abraham as he sacrificed his son. It's funny that you'd pick one of the most immoral acts in the Bible as an example."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The only reason your argument carries any weight is if the people of that time were judged through human-centrism. The fact is, they were Theo-centric. You cant snap cuffs on your own sociological conscience. Your problem is that you view these events from a human-centric perspective.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Phat writes: The only reason your argument carries any weight is if the people of that time were judged through human-centrism. The fact is, they were Theo-centric. Since theology was created by humans within a society, it circles back on itself. Morality makes no sense once it is taken out of the human context. If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command. There is no way around it. If morality is simply based on what God commands then we are no different than dogs who take commands or computers. Following orders isn't morality. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Taq writes: If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command. And the Bible says we are charged in that case to question God as has been pointed out to Phat many, many times.
Genesis 18:17-33 writes:
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. 30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. 33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: But this is an assumption made by secular humanists. While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans.
Since theology was created by humans within a society, it circles back on itself. Taq writes: God was testing Abraham, so the story goes. If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit. Critics would argue that God by definition represented the main authority in those times. Just as presidents enjoy diplomatic immunity for a season, so would God. If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit. According to the Bible humans are as high an authority on morality as God. Remember Genesis 3 Phat?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You really need to stop exaggerating. "The Bible" can say otherwise. For every genesis 3 scripture that you show me, I can show you 5 scriptures that place God in a unique category above humans. You love your pet arguments, though.
Remember "my ways are higher than your ways? Remember "God is not a man that He should lie?" and no, I have not read the Bible thoroughly lately...but it appears that it is you doing the cherry-picking this time. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes Phat, the Bible is filled with contradictions. It's filled with examples of God's morality and frankly in most cases God is not just immoral but rather amoral.
That is why no one should simply accept "God said it so it's right" and always test the content rather than accept the source.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But that's the character in the book. I'm talking about the real Deity.
You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source. You only have to accept that the source is who the source claims to be and until you provide some way to actually test to see if it really is GOD and not just God or god even that acceptance is simply a belief. Any content must always be tested and that includes content from God or god.
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