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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow.
ringo writes:
..and just how well is that working out? We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings. GDR writes:
I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold. Our relatively small church provides about 60% of the support to provide a shelter, food and education for young women in Kampala."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
ringo writes: ..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market.
Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow. ringo writes:
I agree with that but in our case we aren't a rich church. I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
There aren't many things in the world that work perfectly all of the time. That's no reason to dismiss the value of social interaction. ..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
GDR writes: Sure, So we agree that regardless of belief, 'all you need is love.
but if the Christian argument that all love is a result of God loving us is true, then God is anything but redundant. Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18650 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity. Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist. I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable. Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Phat writes: Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist. It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says. GDR tells us that Jesus tells us love is all you need, therefore relious belief is redundant.
I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable. That's not an argument, that's just you saying something you want to be true.
Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy. Uh? It's not about me. Please follow the argument.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18650 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says. And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says. Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy. If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Phat writes: And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says. Yes, by ignoring what it says and believing what you want to believe instead.
Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy. There's nothing scientific or philosophical in pointing out what Jesus says in your book.
If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs. You're more than a little confused - this is not my thread.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Ever hear of idolatry? Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God. I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, you can not form theories about anything based on beliefs. Theories are based on facts. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18650 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God. Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion. ringo writes:
Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as. Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18650 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
ringo writes: OK, I'll go with that for now. I believe that there is no need for me to ask "which God" I am relating to as I believe that God wants me to seek Him and only the God with the power to draw me closer is, in fact, the real one. I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability. And I suppose that I could agree that my beliefs don't even require a God as they are products of my desires and imagination. But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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ringo Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's where I disagree with you. I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan. I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability. But of course Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18650 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
ringo writes: To sum up your point, you really mean that the easiest person to fool is ourselves. This is why I listen to varied points of view regarding God, religion, and other people's POV concerning the existence of and characteristics of God. I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan.But of course, Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God. I've gone far deeper than many if not most Christians whom I know would have dared to go. I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. I listened to several podcasts describing some honestly introspective deconversion experiences. And of course, I endlessly discuss these things with you and jar even though I do not agree with your world view ideas that humans create God. I believe that God is also external to us as is Satan. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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