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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Phat writes: I fight very hard to prove to everyone that I don't owe anybody anything. I doubt anyone here thinks that you owe anyone anything, what people are repeatedly saying is that that's what your beloved bible tells you. You're not fighting us, you're fighting your belief. Of course normal people *do* feel that they owe people respect and goodwill and so on, you know, all that 'do as you would be done by' stuff. But all your god crap is redundant.
The weakness in my argument is that I at the same time feel that God owes me a relationship and a blank check. It is basically what my Dad would have given me, except that the check would not be blank and would involve some promises on my part. It's not an argument, it's just your personal need isn't it?
I now am faced with the question of what I owe God. Just lead a decent life, that's all you need do. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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I don't think Phat is trying to convert or convince anyone here, he's trying to convince himself of something.
His difficulty seems to be in reconciling his hallucination/delusion/revelation of years ago with his personal circumstances and his inability/unwillingness to actually follow the messages in his belief system because it would make things worse for him.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Phat writes: You are right for once. And what's worse is the realization that God's magic isn't working on my behalf. It may be that your perception of what the Christian god is all about is just wrong? He's not about helping you in this life - in fact the opposite - he's telling you what you're supposed to do to get an entry pass into the next.
If ringo is right in that I am expected to follow God and deny myself fully...on my own power...and without God's help....I'm screwed. Of course he's right! Jesus said it himself. It doesn't seem to bother any other Christians though, they make excuses for not following the strict guidelines because it's totally impossible unless you're mentally ill. If the organised religions followed the teaching of Christ they would be a poor as a church mouse, not as rich as Croesus. It's a fatuously stupid requirement so it's never done. Instead people do the best they can given their circumstances. It's called pick-and-mix Christianity and it's just living a decent life with a bit of - to my mind totally redundant - churchgoing and grovelling. Job done, go fishing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served. ...in order to go to heaven. Jesus's message is love thy neighbour and be saved. Phat struggles with the 'serve', 'love thy neighbour' bit when it would actually harm him to do what his Lord expects of him - exactly like the rest of you. He just hasn't found a way to compromise yet. Anglicanism would be perfect.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR, I can barely read this kind of stuff because it's just such preachy blather oriented around a personal belief. A different Christian would have a different personal slant and quote a different set of parables and verses and/or interpret them differently.
The bottom line is that Christians are told that the way to everlasting life is to love your neighbour and follow Jesus. These three things are inseparable. The detail of how to do that vary, works, worship, sect, ritual, tradition etc etc but that's the basic message - you get to heaven if you believe in Jesus and behave decently to others. Currently Phat is struggling with one of those inconvenient details - having to give everything away in order to qualify and he's also noticed that his belief is not actually making his life any better. Christians let those particular details pass by without affecting them, just like the don't let the fact that the god that 'loves' them doesn't mind killing 2% of the global population by inflicting a virus on all them which they have no immunity from. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
double post
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: I don't agree with all that came out of the reformation Of course you don't, you have your own view. That's my point. But it doesn't matter what *you* believe there definitely *is* a basic message, 'follow me, love thy neighbour and enter heaven.'
It is about responding to that still small voice of God or our conscience that we all have if you like Again, that's only what *you* believe. Following your conscience is the ultimate get out of jail card, the Catholics use it all the time - 'contraception is a mortal sin' unless your conscience tells you otherwise. 'Of course you don't have to give away all your money if your conscience tells you otherwise'. Never mind what the book actually says.
Why do you assume that you understand it more than I do, or more than anyone else? Because I can see that there are tens of thousands of different Christian sects with hundreds, if not millions of different interpretations, am not personally committed to any of them and can see the bigger picture. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: We all have our own view and you as an atheist have your own view of what Christians should believe. As a Christian I am saying that it is my view that your view is wrong. I'm a 'Christian atheist' actually, I've had as much teaching of Christianity as you have and once believed as strongly in it as you do. Plus, as a non-believer, I'm able to look objectively at all the flavours of Christianity, not just the one I'm most comfortable with.
Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets. Oh, I wish that was true. If that was all that was actually what your religion is about, there would be no need for the religion at all; no need for worship need for preaching about everlasting damnation for the sins of the father, no baptisms, no bells and smells, no knocking on doors and martyrs, no eucharist, no holy armies, no hours wasted in prayer, no bible study groups, no indoctrination of children with fairy stories about everlasting life at the hand of god, and so on. All that would be necessary would be to say 'be nice'. Why mention Jesus at all? In effect, you and me are identical in our values, I say to Phat, just lead a decent life, treat others with respect and help with what you can. You say follow you conscience and do as you would be done by. The only difference is that I don't waste my time grovelling to a non-existent entity and hoping for everlasting life. *You* may not think that anything other than being nice to people is all that is necessary to be a Christian, and I might hope that you're right, but that is NOT what the bible tells you and it's not what the majority of religious institutions founded around it have preached and still preach. According to them - and the book - entering the pearly gates requires baptism, prayer and belief. Where I do agree with you is that Christianity as a whole would be a far better thing if they all held your nice liberal Anglican views and Phat would be a lot happier as an Anglican than he is now.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes:
(Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets.) Well, the Bible quotes Jesus as having said that. So there's no need for anything else is there? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: If the whole point is to be on the right side of the equation at the end of this life then I'd say you're partly right, but if that is the point of it all then, the motivation can easily be selfish and the question is then is it really love. In other words your god is saying 'love each other or else' whilst making all life compete so as to ensure that it is impossible to do so. Nasty little guy your god.
Christianity does give a rationale for why love matters. In the atheistic world of mindless causes love is a pretty nebulous concept. Utter crap, I have a very clear view of why love matters. Where do you get this bullshit from?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes:
All life on earth competes merely to survive. You have a very myopic view of life. The way we are now is a result of billions of organisms and billions of years of competition for life.
Not at all. It is hardly a competition. Once again, if we are only the result of a chance combination of particles and processes then how do we know that there is right and wrong, good an evil, or love and hate. Because we have an evolved brain and consciousness! You accept evolution, this is the result. We create the rules we live by and always have. There is no evidence that anything else has made us the way we are.
I don't doubt that you know why love matters, but I would contend that you can only know that because there is an intelligence responsible for us being able to love. I have a hunch that you'll disagree. You tell us that loving each other is all that is required of us by your reading of your religious work, well I'm happy with that, I just find the need for a god superfluous. You have yet to explain why anyone should bother with all the rest of the religious paraphernalia and baggage. After all, as a non-believer in an afterlife my instincts to live a decent life and do well by people can't be taken as a purely selfish act designed to book a place in this heaven of yours now can it? That question can only hang over a believer.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Phat writes: I would argue that experience has shaped my beliefs and shapes the beliefs of many people. Evidence is lacking. To me, this does not mean that there is no God. Experience shapes everyone's belief - if you had no experience of Christianity you could not believe what you believe. That has no bearing on whether a god exists or otherwise.
For you, the absence of evidence led to your conclusion of absence regarding God. Nope, as I've said many times, I decided that there was no god because it became clear that the god I'd been taught to believe in was a pile of juvenile, made up crap. Total garbage.
I see that and so does GDR and Faith. I've noticed that Faith has a bit of an evangelistic bent lately as she is only basically saying to you that she knows not the day or the hour *But that God does* so keep an open mind. You, on the other hand, are willing to offer we believers a guarantee that nothing supernatural is ever going to happen and that you have faith in the obvious. I'm just stateing the bleedin' obvious. Faith's views on the rapture are totally whacko.
More than enough? It seems that God Himself (Herself, Itself) would be a welcome addition and it is just the excess religious baggage connected with Him that you consider excessive. Or am I again wrong about how you think? The superfluous comment is about belief not the existence of god. If - as GDR says - all that's necessary to get into heaven is to 'love thy neighbour', religion and belief is superfluous. People can do that anyway. In fact, we can't help ourselves mostly.
For me personally, a disinterested aloof god would be superfluous. An interactive supportive One would not. Yeh, well Phat, as I've said before, this isn't about what *you* want or need; it's about what is. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: This was a reply to Phat but the quote was from Phat but you used GDR. Fixed, thanksJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: However my point has always been that even if consciousness can be shown to have evolved it doesn't change anything. For the sake of this argument, I agree. It doesn't matter whether our consciousness evolved (huge amount of evidence) or whether god planted it in us individually (absolutely no evidence at all, and a very large problem with arguments of freewill if he did, but never mind). Given that we do have a conscience, however derived, and given that you claim that all that is asked of us by your god is for us to love each other, all the rest of your belief is redundant is it not?
Once again the point of being a Christian is not to be on the right side of God when you die. The point is that as a Christian you have faith that God has given you life and loves you and your neighbour. It hopefully makes you more open to that God meme and gives you a heart that wants to live a life based on my signature. And I'm going to say yet again, so what? If I live a decent life, look after my neighbour etc, you say that's all that's required. I do not have to be a believing Christian to do all that - it's all totally unnecessary, and, incidentally a load of superstitious bunkum.
it isn't that non-Christians can't fulfill that vocation but I suggest that it is pretty clear that the Christian response is far greater than the response from those of other faiths or non-faiths. Well that's one hell of an unsupported claim and is also irrelevant. Your argument now seems to be that christians are better at being nice people - an idea that is pretty disgusting and beneath you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
GDR writes: What I claimed was that the vast majority of NGO foreign aid is done by Christian organizations. Which is probably untrue and in any case irrelevant.
I have never said that Christians are "nicer" than non-Christians. That is simply your term and not one I have ever used in this context. That's exacly what your claim translates too.
I am simply saying that Christians are more likely to offer foreign aid to unknown neighbours than non-Christians, and used the refugee case as an example. That's not a neutral statement, you're saying it in an attempt to show that Christians are nicer people than others. But this is all avoiding the core argument; even if it was actually true that christians were nicer people - or in your terms 'love more sacrificially' - it is still totally unnecessary to be one. Anyone can love others and behave decently to them. The god side of your proposition, particularly the christian god side, is redundant.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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