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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Our decisions are in the universe - so your god did not crerate everything in the universe. That's the logic. Pretty simple.
If by that you mean that He doesn't create your decisions, then yes, I agree. Phat writes:
That's not how it works in our justice system. If you plant landmines in your front yard, you're responsible for the consequences. He created the possibility of evil. Humans still choose whether or not to actualize it."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
I think I smell a No True Scotsman fallacy.
... the question is then is it really love. GDR writes:
Not really. It's just part of being a social species. What we do for others is love. In the atheistic world of mindless causes love is a pretty nebulous concept."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Not "self-serving". Just serving. If we have a mindless root then love is only what seems to work in some circumstances and is self serving."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Well, it isn't "only". ... if service is only performed when there is going to be a benefit to the individual or the culture of the one doing the serving, then our world would be a much darker place than it already is. But in any case, service that benefits the server as well as the servee is, if anything, better than one-way service. Service in a restaurant is better if the waitress gets paid. Better than slavery."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Service is service. It's all about getting along together, cooperation. That kind of service isn't about loving your neighbour or loving sacrificially. Love does not have to be "sacrificial". That's just an excuse to shoehorn Jesus' death into the equation. He may have sacrificed His life but He didn't actually accomplish anything by doing it. He would have shown more love by tipping the waitress at the Last Supper."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Foreign aid is only a tiny part of our international cooperation. We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings. Aid to third world countries is not about co-operation it is about loving your neighbour sacrificially."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow.
ringo writes:
..and just how well is that working out? We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings. GDR writes:
I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold. Our relatively small church provides about 60% of the support to provide a shelter, food and education for young women in Kampala."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
There aren't many things in the world that work perfectly all of the time. That's no reason to dismiss the value of social interaction. ..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Ever hear of idolatry? Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God. I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, you can not form theories about anything based on beliefs. Theories are based on facts. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion. ringo writes:
Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as. Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's where I disagree with you. I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan. I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability. But of course Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: To sum up your point, you really mean that the easiest person to fool is ourselves. This is why I listen to varied points of view regarding God, religion, and other people's POV concerning the existence of and characteristics of God.quote: quote: Phat writes:
I don't know who they are.
I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. Phat writes:
That's what I mean. You use that as a rote answer to everything. You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer™. I believe that God is also external to us as is Satan."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, I mean you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong).
ringo writes:
If by that you mean that I don't throw away my old answers whenever I come across new ones, you are correct. You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer Phat writes:
I don't believe you do. You're constantly saying that you refuse to give up your beliefs.
I do consider the new ones on their own merit.... Phat writes:
Yes. If you have really thought about it, I don't see how you could do anything else.
Do you expect me to throw away everything I have believed as you did? Phat writes:
"Deify" is not the right word. I might go so far as to say "revere" but I think "respect" would be more accurate. You deify evidence as if its the default standard for everything... And yes, again, evidence IS the default standard. It really is.
Phat writes:
Well, no. I have gathered NONE of it and neither has anybody else, which is why I don't believe in God. That's the same standard that you use for unicorns. You're the one who is inconsistent, not me. ... and have somehow gathered enough of it to reject God. And I don't "reject" God any more than I reject unicorns. I would be quite happy to ride a unicorn if you could saddle one for me. And I would be quite happy to discuss your silly theology with God if you could sit Him down on my couch.
Phat writes:
Think that through. You would need "more" than facts to stop clinging to a lack of facts? What ever happened to your claim that you consider new ideas on their merit? I, on the other hand, would need better reasons than a few scholarly lectures from educated people to throw my beliefs away."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're wrong. A war would imply two sides and that's ridiculous. There are hundreds of different ideologies.
I believe that humans are in a war of ideologies. Phat writes:
That's not an excuse for denying the facts that are available.
As for facts, there are some instances in life where they simply are unavailable. Phat writes:
But that's entirely different from you.
ringo writes:
Fair enough. You are no different, however. You would be open to having a discussion with God if somehow he could be brought to your house, at your level, and be plopped down on your couch. You likely would grill Him, citing His propensity to "fry your friends and kill innocents, among other things. ...you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong). Phat writes:
On what do you base that conclusion? How do you distinguish between non-user-friendly and non-existent?
He is in no way as user-friendly as you hope... Phat writes:
I also ignore the unicorns and so do you. Why do you ignore the unicorns?
... so you simply ignore him. Phat writes:
To each according to his need.
Why has he any right to everybody's spare change any more than you or i do? Phat writes:
That isn't even coherent.
You might argue why God has any right to everybody's submission. The only reason you even have such a right is that He allowed it. Phat writes:
Well, of course I would throw away any conclusions that I might have had. It doesn't matter how vivid the memories are. If it didn't happen, it didn't happen.
Say that at one time perhaps ten years ago, you and three friends, enjoying a sober day in the mountains, encountered a UFO. You clearly remember every feeling connected with the experience and even what the round-headed alien said to you. You even felt the touch of their scaley skin brushing against you. Your friends experienced the same event. So along comes evidence which refutes that possibility. Do you simply throw away your memory and your impressions? Phat writes:
Yes. You follow evidence and facts and dismiss the experience as something in your head that could trick you. Duh. I'm trying to wrap my head around how you could not understand that.... Yes, our heads trick us. Let me tell you a story: For Grade One, I went to a one-room country school with all of the grades in one room. The school was originally built in the 1920s. I was born in 1952. In 1954, they built a new school beside the old one and then moved the old one away. For one summer, when I was two, mind you, the schools stood side-by side. I recently came across a photograph of the two scools side-by-side. The funny thing is, I have absolutely no memory of the new school. All of the memories I have of that school are distinctly of the old school. I don't have any voodoo explanations for that. I just accept that my head tricked me.
Phat writes:
Stop lying. I have told you many times that if God existed, I would be happy to accept Him. In fact, you would prefer that the God peddled by organized religion not be real."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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