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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 743 of 1086 (872379)
02-26-2020 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Tangle
02-26-2020 6:54 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Tangle writes:
Of course you don't, you have your own view. That's my point. But it doesn't matter what *you* believe there definitely *is* a basic message, 'follow me, love thy neighbour and enter heaven.'
We all have our own view and you as an atheist have your own view of what Christians should believe. As a Christian I am saying that it is my view that your view is wrong.
Tangle writes:
Again, that's only what *you* believe. Following your conscience is the ultimate get out of jail card, the Catholics use it all the time - 'contraception is a mortal sin' unless your conscience tells you otherwise. 'Of course you don't have to give away all your money if your conscience tells you otherwise'. Never mind what the book actually says.
This is from Matthew:
quote:
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets. All major religions have that in their teaching in one way or another. Jesus is saying that is is basic and fundamental. Basic Christianity is simply that. Love is not something that we can manufacture. It is partly intuitive and partly learned. We all respond positively sometimes and negatively sometimes to our conscience.
Paul tells us not to judge that we be not judged. I simply trust in perfect justice in the end and God will look after what comes next for all of us. You keep on insisting that the point of Christianity is to avoid hell with your get out of jail free quip. That again is simply your view of Christianity, a view that I personally reject.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 3:08 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 751 of 1086 (872395)
02-26-2020 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
02-26-2020 8:14 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:
GDR, do you really not get that most "serving" that is done is done for personal benefit? To feel good about yourself, to feel superior to others, to get credit of one sort or another, some kind of reward from God or whatnot? That's the most common sin there is, and it's a form of spiritual sin. When Paul said it's not about works "lest any man should boast," that's what he meant. Boasting comes with doing good works, not with salvation.
Have you studied the Beatitudes? "Blessed are the poor in spirit" is the first one. It's not about literal poverty, being poor in material goods, it's about being poor IN SPIRIT, which means not trusting in ourselves, not thinking we have anything good to offer God or anyone else. It's foundational to the whole Christian life. Basically what it means is that we have to be free of self-righteousness, of thinking we can accomplish anything at all in our own strength. We have to know that we can do absolutely nothing on our own, no good works for sure, nothing, that we are incapable of anything good, it all has to come from God. That's basic humility, pointing to your good heart or your good deeds is pride.
If you read what I have written Faith I think I have been clear that serving is about serving with no consideration of any reward and all that you describe above would be a reward. As C S Lewis says the greatest sin is the sin of pride. You have completely misread what it is that I have been saying.
Faith writes:
The Reformation doctrine of "Total depravity" is another way of saying that. We CAN'T do good works, GDR, it isn't in us, we're fallen. Salvation is regeneration of the spirit we lost at the Fall by which we can eventually reclaim some of the ability to do good that we lost but the more we reclaim the more we will learn that it all comes from God anyway and not from us. But you'd have us somehow think we can have a good heart without that. That's self-deception to a monumental degree. Even after being saved we are subject to our wretched fallen nature, and one of our biggest sins is thinking we're good or are capable of doing good.
Life is a gift of God and so is the ability to love others. We can choose to accept that gift of being able to feel and act on love from God, or we are free to reject it.
Faith writes:
The saddest people are the ones who think they'll go to heaven because they've been good people. Well I don't doubt that they have been good by our woefully inadequate standards, but it isn't goodness that gets us saved, that is what Paul meant, we are sinners deserving only of eternal damnation, saved only by God's grace and by nothing in ourselves. We need Jesus' goodness in our place to save us, or to have any ability to do any kind of good at all.
IMHO the saddest people are those that think that they'll go to heaven, (and going to heaven is Platonic and not scriptural), because they believe they have the correct doctrine. It isn't about what we do it is about the heart, which is the motivation for what we do.
Out of curiosity, I wonder about yourself. I'm sure that you do things for others that cost you time and/or money. If Tangle were to convince you that your beliefs are false and you accepted atheism would you still do those things that you do now?
Faith writes:
I understand that you sorta kinda give credit to God for our ability to do good, but as long as your focus is on doing good you are building up pride and self-righteousness or "boasting."
I know you don't mean this but read what you just wrote. You make it sound that if I want to get in good with God by being humble, that I should stop doing good for others.
I think that you have a rather low opinion of people in general if you believe that they can't do good without being prideful and self righteousness. The Bible tells us we can. Just read my signature. We are called to humble kindness and justice.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:34 PM GDR has replied
 Message 755 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 756 of 1086 (872400)
02-26-2020 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by Faith
02-26-2020 9:34 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:
In any case you denigrate salvation which is the only way we could ever begin to do a single good deed in the requisite purity, and although we are to do good deeds based on our salvation that's based on knowing that God accepts our efforts at that point because He overlooks our sinfulness based on Christ's work.
You however talk about having a good heart as if that's even possible and it simply is not, and you compound that error by the way you talk about salvation as something selfish rather than the merciful gift of God to miserable sinners who are incapable of doing one good thing by His holy standards.
Again though Faith your whole reason to be a Christian is to figure out how to gain salvation. It isn't that it doesn't matter but it is actually a by-product of fulfilling the vocation that God calls all humans to. Certainly nobody fills that vocation even close to perfectly. We all succumb regularly to selfishness. The point is that we are called to set our lives on a trajectory that leads us in the direction of a Christ like life based solely on sacrificial love, not that we ever, at least in this life, come close to achieving it.
There will always be those, possibly because of growing up in abusive homes, that are virtually incapable of living the lives that God hopes we will, but at the same time they may hate the way they live and in their hearts desperately want to live the life that we are called to. It is about the heart and I am quite content to let God look after things after this life comes to an end. As Paul says judge not that you be not judged.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 10:23 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 758 of 1086 (872403)
02-26-2020 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 755 by Faith
02-26-2020 9:56 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:
It isn't an intellectual doctrine, it's FAITH and faith is an active almost living thing, the "evidence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for" or the other way around I often get it wrong. Faith grasps realities we otherwise have no way of knowing and one thing it grasps is our regenerated spirits that were lost at the Fall. And that is absolutely basic. We cannot do one good thing until we're regenerated, born again.
..but faith in what. It is fine to say faith in Jesus but what does that mean? Is it Faith that he lived; is it faith that He was good, is it Faith that He was God, is it faith in an inerrant Bible or is it faith that the life of sacrificial love that He calls us to is the basis on how our lives should be lived regardless of our doctrinal beliefs.
Faith writes:
The study of Revelation I've been doing has been truly a revelation for me. Yes we will go to heaven, we who are raptured, and so will all those who die in Christ during the Tribulation as well, but that isn't our final abode. The millennia kingdom is really something to think about, the restoration of Eden, and that willb e followed by the eternal kingdom. But I don't want to get into all that. The point is that salvation is a change in our nature that recovers spiritual abilities we lost, and it is absolutely necessary for fitting us for a future life, first on a renovated Earth and then the New Jerusalem. The Love we should grow into over that time is far beyond anything we can imagine now.
That understanding of doctrine comes from reading the Bible with a western 21st century understanding of something written by a 1st century Jew to a 1st century audience. It is if I wrote that it was raining cats and dogs and someone 2000 years from now understands that our pets were picked up by a cyclone and then rained down on us.
Faith writes:
You always make it sound as if we could just DECIDE to be that way and overlook the scriptural requirement that we be CHANGED, that is, born again, our spiritual faculty restored.
It isn't a matter of one day deciding something. It is just that one day we might have an opportunity to do something kind for some one. Maybe give a couple of bucks to someone who is homeless. Something we hadn't done before. Maybe a week later we do the same thing again, and then again and the again. Gradually we start understanding that this is normal and the way that we should live out lives.
On the other hand maybe one day we stick a chocolate bar in our pocket and leave the store without paying for it. A week later we get away with it again, and again. Ultimately that way of life becomes the norm for us.
It isn't that those trajectories can't change and start going the opposite way but hopefully you get my point. I might suggest reading C S Lewis' book
The Great Divorce" to see what I'm getting at. Also his last book in the Narnia series, The Last Battle, can be really helpful.
Faith writes:
I definitely do a lot more good deeds as a Christian than I ever did as an atheist.
Then maybe you are just doing good deeds to get in God's good books. My point was if you now became an atheist, and as a result you stopped doing the good deeds, then it sounds like you would have been doing them as you expected a positive result for yourself. If you would keep doing them it would be an indication that the good deeds represent who you are regardless of belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 10:46 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 762 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 2:27 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 785 of 1086 (872448)
02-27-2020 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Tangle
02-27-2020 3:08 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR writes:
Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets.
tangle writes:
Oh, I wish that was true.
Well, the Bible quotes Jesus as having said that.
Tangle writes:
If that was all that was actually what your religion is about, there would be no need for the religion at all; no need for worship need for preaching about everlasting damnation for the sins of the father, no baptisms, no bells and smells, no knocking on doors and martyrs, no eucharist, no holy armies, no hours wasted in prayer, no bible study groups, no indoctrination of children with fairy stories about everlasting life at the hand of god, and so on. All that would be necessary would be to say 'be nice'. Why mention Jesus at all?
Because it is much more than being nice. The thing that separates Christianity from other beliefs is the claim that God resurrected Jesus. If that isn’t true then I agree with Paul when he writes that we are to be pitied. However Christianity at its most basic is based on that and everything else flows from it.
It is interesting in that in the Old Testament we can see that the generations kept adding laws and allowing cultural changes into their belief system. Christianity has done the same thing. Christianity for its first 300 years was pretty consistent about what it meant to be Christian.
I recently gave a talk that I had prepared in our church and I’m going to use parts of that to make my point.
I mentioned on another thread that I had recently read a book by Alan Kreider called The Patient Ferment — The Improbable Rise of the Christian Church in the Roman EmpireHere is a quote from that book.
quote:
Candidates for baptism came from differing backgrounds — Jewish and pagan, Greek and Roman. They also were of both sexes and a range of social classes. Most were poor and some were slaves, but a few were comfortably well-off. Some of the candidates were illiterate. Somehow the church’s teaching was meant to reach all of these, for all were important in the Christian church. The teachers conveyed to the candidates that, although they valued education, refined learning was not the point; the instruction was not designed to produce sophisticated thought but character and virtuous living.
The church’s growth was the product, not of the Christians’ persuasive powers, but of their convincing life style.
The early Christians stood out in contrast to their violent, self-serving culture, for the way that they loved each other, their neighbours and even their enemies. The focus was on virtuous living but people were only baptized after they had demonstrated that they had adopted that life style before being given instruction on Christian doctrine. That is what Christianity was from the apostolic time until Constantine with the Milan edict in 313 AD when Christianity was legalized and then in 380 AD Christianity became the state religion for the Roman Empire.
All of this was good for the existing Christians but it was a terrible thing for Christianity in general. Christians were no longer being persecuted as they had been but it was disastrous for what it did to how Christianity was lived and understood.
As I see it there were 5 basic things that were very negative for the church.
1/ This moved the church away from the non-aggression stance taken by Jesus, and impacted the thinking of the church right through the middle ages and is still an influence today.
2/ Another change that came as a result of this was that, whereas the early Christian Church had been largely egalitarian, (even though it had Bishops), it now gave undue influence to political leaders, and in this case Roman political leaders. The gulf between what was secular and what was Christian had to a large degree been crossed. The message, mission and life of the church has always suffered whenever the church has become a route to political power.
3/ It also moved the centre of a large segment of Christianity away from Jerusalem to Rome which gave a strong start to separating Christianity and Jesus from their Jewish roots. Up to this time Christianity had been rooted in the Jewishness of Jesus and the Jewish understanding of the life, death and message of Jesus. This allowed for a Latin input into Christian doctrine but to a much greater extent Christianity, took on board a great deal of Greek philosophy and particularly the philosophy of Plato.
4/ In the book I mentioned earlier called The Patient Ferment it is clear that one of the major characteristics of the first three centuries of Christianity was patience. These early Christians were not focused on growing the church but to patiently let it grow driven by the example of their life style of sexual fidelity, love and courage. After Constantine it became more about growing the church, largely as a cultural and political entity.
5/ Church law and church practices were now being either set or heavily influenced by leaders, political and/or Christian, who had personal agendas.
Point 3 was really crucial on the formation of Christian doctrine and took it way off track. Virtually all of the New Testament was written in Greek. Greek thinking had a massive influence on Christian belief. Essentially Plato taught that all matter is evil and that only the spiritual is good. He taught that the soul is eternal but matter is temporal. In other words this material world is an evil place that will ultimately be done away with and only the soul will remain in one state or another.
Other Greek thinking crept into the Christian church. For example, the gods of the Greek pantheon were angry gods and needed appeasing. As a result we still hear to this day the idea that God’s anger needed to be appeased and this was achieved through the cross. Instead of John 3:16 saying that He loves the world and gave us the Son, it is as if it read that God so hated the world that He killed the Son.
So Greek ideas became embedded in Christian theology, but the Latin or Roman influence was felt more in the church itself. As Rome became the leading center of Christianity, the church fairly quickly adopted the top down form of governance that the Roman Empire itself employed. This resulted in the Pope of Rome gaining more and more political power over the following few centuries until the lines are completely blurred between the emperor and pope with some popes holding the title of emperor. The papacy became more about political power and the accumulation of wealth, than about Christian doctrine or Christian service. Any doctrinal issues were solved by political and financial motivation. Military might was used to put down opposition, to spread the Christian church, and increase the influence of the pope. Leadership in the church was about acquiring wealth and power and its mission and practice was far removed from the mission and practice of Jesus - the lower class Jew who washed the feet of His disciples.
You might find the church a bit different now that what you experienced before. Over the last 50 years or so there has been a lot of scholarship that has gone into studying Jesus in his historical context and the church in general is shedding the Greek and Latin influences in Christian thinking, and it is slowly moving back to the model of the early church.
So to your question of why bother with it all all and just be nice.
Firstly as a Christian I believe that the Bible is a book that God’ spirit uses a a tool to reach out to us. It is my belief that God touches human hearts and the Bible is one way that He does that.
Secondly I can serve God and His creation collectively better than I can as an individual. As I’ve said elsewhere our church and in concert with other churches of different denominations locally have sponsored numerous Syrian refugees and then helped them settle in Canada, I can’t do that as an individual.
Thirdly, if I believe as I do that God resurrected Jesus then I have to consider what that means. It means that I can get a sense of God’s purpose for life. It also does show that life exists beyond the life that we know. It gets away from the Platonic thinking that this world is evil and will eventually be eliminated with only some kind of soulful existence remaining. It shows that this world matters and that we have to care for it. It also shows that ultimately there is purpose to our lives beyond this life.
As a Christian community we can learn about the needs within our church community and the broader community so that we can in concert help those who need help.
I do agree to a point with Faith that being born again is part of the point. I simply knew that when I first accepted the faith that the way I viewed others changed. I spoke differently about others and was more accepting of what I saw as shortfalls in others.
In my view the Christian vocation is to be reflectors of God’s love into all of His creation and Christianity grounds me in that. I also believe that it has opened up in a deeper way to that God meme that is in all of us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 3:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 2:04 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 787 of 1086 (872451)
02-27-2020 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by Tangle
02-27-2020 2:04 PM


The point of Christianity
Tangle writes:
(Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets.)
So there's no need for anything else is there?
If the whole point is to be on the right side of the equation at the end of this life then I'd say you're partly right, but if that is the point of it all then, the motivation can easily be selfish and the question is then is it really love.
Actually I think I went through quite a bit of why there is something else in my last post. Christianity does give a rationale for why love matters. In the atheistic world of mindless causes love is a pretty nebulous concept.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 2:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 3:57 PM GDR has replied
 Message 793 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 5:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 789 of 1086 (872456)
02-27-2020 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by ringo
02-27-2020 3:57 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:
I think I smell a No True Scotsman fallacy.
Not really. I'm simply asking the question of whether if something as done as a "loving" act when the motive is to gain a benefit for the self. From a human perspective we can't tell whether it is done from a position of love or not.
ringo writes:
Not really. It's just part of being a social species. What we do for others is love.
If we have a mindless root then love is only what seems to work in some circumstances and is self serving.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 3:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 5:21 PM GDR has replied
 Message 791 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 5:27 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 792 of 1086 (872461)
02-27-2020 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by jar
02-27-2020 5:21 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
jar writes:
What does that even mean?
Simply that there is no external intelligence responsible for our existence, or put the other way around, that we are simply the result of a chance combination of particles and processes.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 5:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 5:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 794 of 1086 (872463)
02-27-2020 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by ringo
02-27-2020 5:27 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:
Not "self-serving". Just serving.
We have been down this path before, (which hardly ever happens in this forum ) but if service is only performed when there is going to be a benefit to the individual or the culture of the one doing the serving, then our world would be a much darker place than it already is.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 5:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:39 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 795 of 1086 (872464)
02-27-2020 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by Tangle
02-27-2020 5:37 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Tangle writes:
In other words your god is saying 'love each other or else' whilst making all life compete so as to ensure that it is impossible to do so. Nasty little guy your god.
Not at all. It is hardly a competition. It is simply about responding positively to that God meme in all of us with the hope that we will be motivated to whatever degree that we are able to be prepared to love others sacrificially. You keep wanting to turn it into a heaven or hell thing. It is about God wanting this world to be a better place for everyone.
Tangle writes:
Utter crap, I have a very clear view of why love matters. Where do you get this bullshit from?
Once again, if we are only the result of a chance combination of particles and processes then how do we know that there is right and wrong, good an evil, or love and hate.
I don't doubt that you know why love matters, but I would contend that you can only know that because there is an intelligence responsible for us being able to love. I have a hunch that you'll disagree.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 5:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:37 PM GDR has replied
 Message 809 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 3:39 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 798 of 1086 (872467)
02-27-2020 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by jar
02-27-2020 5:56 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
jar writes:
Again, how is that relevant to anything? It certainly has no relevance related to morality or service or love or deeds or results or responsibility or duty or ...
I say it does because if we are the result of blind chance then it is my contention that there is no frame of reference for understanding morality.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 5:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 6:29 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 799 of 1086 (872468)
02-27-2020 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 6:10 PM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Hyroglyphx writes:
But then it begs the question what the purpose of the bible is and that is where Jar massively differs from other Christians. He sees it as a general guide, not an instruction manual that must be followed to the letter. Therein lies the disconnect between you two, seems to me.
I was reading your post and was thinking that you nailed it, and then I came to this last statement and I don't think that I am understanding it the way you intended it to be understood.
I'm just wondering of you see these two positions as the only options. Isn't there room in between those two positions?
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:10 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:46 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 805 of 1086 (872475)
02-27-2020 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 6:46 PM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Hyroglyphx writes:
ell, sure, but it was specific to how Phat and Jar view the bible differently. The point being that two people can read the exact same bible and still arrive at radically different conclusions.
Thanks, that explains it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 806 of 1086 (872476)
02-27-2020 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 6:37 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Hyroglyphx writes:
It may superficially appear as such, and even supposing it is true there's really no way to define what that intelligence is. We say "God" as a kind of catch-all metric the same we speak about "Mother Nature", but its a pretty empty and non-definable term when you really stop to think about it. You might as well say gods in plurality or aliens are responsible. Its just as theoretically plausible and equally unprovable. Whether its evolution or God, you still have a chicken/egg problem.
I agree with all of that. When I talk about being the result of intelligence I am not doing it in reference to a specific deity. It is just a theistic ,or I suppose even from a deistic POV. BTW I have no problem with evolutionary theory.
Hyroglyphx writes:
As to love, I'm sure you are able to see that mammals in general have a much higher capacity to display and demonstrate levels of love or affection than other animals. My dogs and my cats love me. The higher the intelligence of the animal, the more pronounced the level of love is and the more it resembles our human definition of love. Chimpanzees can laugh. They can cry. They can hug. They can bury their dead. They demonstrate traits so close to our own. And isn't interesting that they just so happen to be much more highly intelligent than many other mammals that don't and can't do those things. I can laugh all day with my cat hoping she'll start laughing too, but she never does... because she does not possess the intelligence to even know what humor is.
I agree
Hyroglyphx writes:
What you are purporting is a lazy "God did it" answer in the absence of a clearly identifiable answer that, if we're being totally honest, that no one knows or could know. I used to utilize the same argument when I was a believer, that good and evil must be intrinsic otherwise how could you distinguish between them? But the reality is that isn't... When you watch a lion tear apart a baby gazelle and watch the agony of the creature, you see that the lion could care less. There's no moral conflict there. And yet that same female lion that callously and savagely disemboweled a living creature will still lovingly preen her cubs, feed her cubs with the flesh of the gazelle, etc.
I am not claiming I know, but from what I have observed over the years I am convinced without knowing it to be true. I think that you would agree that humans have a higher sense of morality that any other animal, and as a result we have a more refined senses of good and evil etc.
I would add however, that when I look at how our society usually treat the creatures that we eat that we aren't any better than your female lion.
Hyrpglyphx writes:
Humans have a defined sense of right and wrong the same way a pack of dogs develop social rules learned by observing social cues from one another. Pack animals especially have this. And the proof that it is not necessarily universal even among humans is that still in parts of the world cannibalism is an accepted practice that elicits not a shred of guilt, where as in most parts of the world we call that "homicide" and "abuse of a corpse."
I get that, but I don't see that it explains sacrificial love for others that we never meet and aren't part of our gene pool or our culture. Why do we as individuals send huge amounts of money voluntarily to the third world. You can accept that it is a cultural thing but I just don't see it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:37 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 7:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 808 of 1086 (872478)
02-27-2020 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 7:52 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Hyroglyphx writes:
And that's fine, I accept that. I am also in no way stating that what I just said is completely accurate it is just a preview into my rationale at the present time... which is always subject to the potential of change.
There is always new information to be discovered. I have retained a strong Christian faith over the years but it is been substantially changed or refined over the last couple of decades.
Hyrpglyphx writes:
Altruism exists in the animal kingdom.... check out this unbelievable display of altruism throughout different species. Fascinating!
Watched it all and it is fascinating. After watching our dogs go through life and pass on I hold the opinion that they have a sense or senses that we don't have. They just seem to sometimes perceive things that we don't and I think that they have a different take on death than we do. Don't ask me to explain that but I plan to go to all the classes in the next life.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Now, how do we explain this? Is there any evidence that God imparts altruism among animals? Is there evidence that animals acknowledge God's existence? I can't answer it. All I can do is be in awe that it exists and marvel at the beauty of nature.
There is no evidence, it is a matter of belief. One thought I have is that I metaphorically consider the Holy Spirit to be a God meme that nudges us to do the loving thing. If we as humans can pass that God meme on to others then I don't see why it couldn't be passed on to animal life as well. The wolf is supposed to be laying down with the lamb in the next life.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 7:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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