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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 783 of 1086 (872444)
02-27-2020 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Phat
02-27-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Phat writes:
If by that you mean that He doesn't create your decisions, then yes, I agree.
Our decisions are in the universe - so your god did not crerate everything in the universe. That's the logic. Pretty simple.
Phat writes:
He created the possibility of evil. Humans still choose whether or not to actualize it.
That's not how it works in our justice system. If you plant landmines in your front yard, you're responsible for the consequences.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 788 of 1086 (872453)
02-27-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by GDR
02-27-2020 2:42 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
... the question is then is it really love.
I think I smell a No True Scotsman fallacy.
GDR writes:
In the atheistic world of mindless causes love is a pretty nebulous concept.
Not really. It's just part of being a social species. What we do for others is love.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 2:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 791 of 1086 (872460)
02-27-2020 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 789 by GDR
02-27-2020 5:14 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
If we have a mindless root then love is only what seems to work in some circumstances and is self serving.
Not "self-serving". Just serving.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 789 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 794 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 813 of 1086 (872517)
02-28-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by GDR
02-27-2020 5:37 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
... if service is only performed when there is going to be a benefit to the individual or the culture of the one doing the serving, then our world would be a much darker place than it already is.
Well, it isn't "only".
But in any case, service that benefits the server as well as the servee is, if anything, better than one-way service. Service in a restaurant is better if the waitress gets paid. Better than slavery.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 816 of 1086 (872522)
02-28-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by GDR
02-28-2020 10:58 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
That kind of service isn't about loving your neighbour or loving sacrificially.
Service is service. It's all about getting along together, cooperation.
Love does not have to be "sacrificial". That's just an excuse to shoehorn Jesus' death into the equation. He may have sacrificed His life but He didn't actually accomplish anything by doing it. He would have shown more love by tipping the waitress at the Last Supper.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 821 of 1086 (872530)
02-28-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 819 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:01 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
Aid to third world countries is not about co-operation it is about loving your neighbour sacrificially.
Foreign aid is only a tiny part of our international cooperation. We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 826 of 1086 (872570)
02-28-2020 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:29 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
ringo writes:
We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings.
..and just how well is that working out?
Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow.
GDR writes:
Our relatively small church provides about 60% of the support to provide a shelter, food and education for young women in Kampala.
I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 828 of 1086 (872580)
02-28-2020 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:32 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:
..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market.
There aren't many things in the world that work perfectly all of the time. That's no reason to dismiss the value of social interaction.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:32 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 834 of 1086 (872686)
03-02-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Phat
03-01-2020 10:49 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable.
Ever hear of idolatry? Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 9:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 835 of 1086 (872688)
03-02-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:16 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.
On the contrary, you can not form theories about anything based on beliefs. Theories are based on facts.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 837 of 1086 (872738)
03-03-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 836 by Phat
03-02-2020 9:35 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.
Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as.
But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 9:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:40 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 839 of 1086 (872747)
03-03-2020 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:40 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability.
That's where I disagree with you. I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan.
But of course Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 2:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 841 of 1086 (872791)
03-04-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 840 by Phat
03-03-2020 2:13 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
To sum up your point, you really mean that the easiest person to fool is ourselves. This is why I listen to varied points of view regarding God, religion, and other people's POV concerning the existence of and characteristics of God.
quote:
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.
-- Stephen R. Covey
quote:
You cannot truly listen to anyone and do anything else at the same time.
-- M. Scott Peck
Phat writes:
I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty.
I don't know who they are.
Phat writes:
I believe that God is also external to us as is Satan.
That's what I mean. You use that as a rote answer to everything. You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer™.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 2:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by Phat, posted 03-06-2020 10:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 843 of 1086 (872896)
03-06-2020 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 842 by Phat
03-06-2020 10:39 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You don't have to actually think about anything because you already have The Answer
If by that you mean that I don't throw away my old answers whenever I come across new ones, you are correct.
No, I mean you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong).
Phat writes:
I do consider the new ones on their own merit....
I don't believe you do. You're constantly saying that you refuse to give up your beliefs.
Phat writes:
Do you expect me to throw away everything I have believed as you did?
Yes. If you have really thought about it, I don't see how you could do anything else.
Phat writes:
You deify evidence as if its the default standard for everything...
"Deify" is not the right word. I might go so far as to say "revere" but I think "respect" would be more accurate.
And yes, again, evidence IS the default standard. It really is.
Phat writes:
... and have somehow gathered enough of it to reject God.
Well, no. I have gathered NONE of it and neither has anybody else, which is why I don't believe in God. That's the same standard that you use for unicorns. You're the one who is inconsistent, not me.
And I don't "reject" God any more than I reject unicorns. I would be quite happy to ride a unicorn if you could saddle one for me. And I would be quite happy to discuss your silly theology with God if you could sit Him down on my couch.
Phat writes:
I, on the other hand, would need better reasons than a few scholarly lectures from educated people to throw my beliefs away.
Think that through. You would need "more" than facts to stop clinging to a lack of facts? What ever happened to your claim that you consider new ideas on their merit?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by Phat, posted 03-06-2020 10:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by Phat, posted 03-07-2020 3:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 848 of 1086 (873002)
03-08-2020 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 844 by Phat
03-07-2020 3:52 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:
I believe that humans are in a war of ideologies.
You're wrong. A war would imply two sides and that's ridiculous. There are hundreds of different ideologies.
Phat writes:
As for facts, there are some instances in life where they simply are unavailable.
That's not an excuse for denying the facts that are available.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
...you don't give the new answers proper consideration because you assume a priori that they're wrong (because you want them to be wrong).
Fair enough. You are no different, however. You would be open to having a discussion with God if somehow he could be brought to your house, at your level, and be plopped down on your couch. You likely would grill Him, citing His propensity to "fry your friends and kill innocents, among other things.
But that's entirely different from you.
Phat writes:
He is in no way as user-friendly as you hope...
On what do you base that conclusion? How do you distinguish between non-user-friendly and non-existent?
Phat writes:
... so you simply ignore him.
I also ignore the unicorns and so do you. Why do you ignore the unicorns?
Phat writes:
Why has he any right to everybody's spare change any more than you or i do?
To each according to his need.
Phat writes:
You might argue why God has any right to everybody's submission. The only reason you even have such a right is that He allowed it.
That isn't even coherent.
Phat writes:
Say that at one time perhaps ten years ago, you and three friends, enjoying a sober day in the mountains, encountered a UFO. You clearly remember every feeling connected with the experience and even what the round-headed alien said to you. You even felt the touch of their scaley skin brushing against you. Your friends experienced the same event. So along comes evidence which refutes that possibility. Do you simply throw away your memory and your impressions?
Well, of course I would throw away any conclusions that I might have had. It doesn't matter how vivid the memories are. If it didn't happen, it didn't happen.
Phat writes:
You follow evidence and facts and dismiss the experience as something in your head that could trick you.
Yes.
Duh.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how you could not understand that....
Yes, our heads trick us.
Let me tell you a story: For Grade One, I went to a one-room country school with all of the grades in one room. The school was originally built in the 1920s. I was born in 1952. In 1954, they built a new school beside the old one and then moved the old one away. For one summer, when I was two, mind you, the schools stood side-by side. I recently came across a photograph of the two scools side-by-side. The funny thing is, I have absolutely no memory of the new school. All of the memories I have of that school are distinctly of the old school.
I don't have any voodoo explanations for that. I just accept that my head tricked me.
Phat writes:
In fact, you would prefer that the God peddled by organized religion not be real.
Stop lying. I have told you many times that if God existed, I would be happy to accept Him.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Phat, posted 03-07-2020 3:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
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