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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9632 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Phat writes: They are trying to sell me the idea that the more I give them, the better blessd I will be! I say hogwash! The entire thing is hogwash Phat - but it is Jesus's core message in your book. I'm not clear about how you can reject it as hogwash while still maintaining a belief in it? Of course the general message is good, 'love thy neighbour', 'do as you would be done by' etc. But you don't need all the rest of the clap-trap to lead a good and useful life.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: I just think that it's unfair that suddenly the whole rest of the world gives us the bill for virtually everything that needs fixing. But of course the whole rest of the world is not giving us the bill. The rest of the world is also paying the bill. No one on Earth will get out of paying the bill. No one. But the reality is that the US has built a reputation for always stiffing others for it's share of the bill. The US decided to defund the maintenance and upkeep and modernization of our infrastructure. No one else defunded the maintenance and upkeep and modernization of our infrastructure; we decided to do that. The US decided that education and health care should be profit centers. It was solely our choice, the rest of the world did not make us do that. The bill we are responsible for is the bill we chose to create, either actively or through willful ignorance. But that bill too will get paid.
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Part of that "bill" is calling in the loan. The West has been taking and taking from the rest of the world for centuries - and now you complain that we have to give something back.
I just think that it's unfair that suddenly the whole rest of the world gives us the bill for virtually everything that needs fixing. Phat writes:
What on earth do my beliefs have to do with it? I don't have to be a Mormon to tell you what the Book of Mormon says. And then you come along and try and remind the Christians what Jesus wants them to do, even though to you He is but a character in a book."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18715 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
The West has been taking and taking from the rest of the world for centuries - and now you complain that we have to give something back. Do you know why? I think I see the big picture quite well. First of all, the apologists always supported prosperity and the favor of God. SO I can see why you never trusted them. Second, even though *we in the West* took and took for years, the wealthy basically keep and have kept most of that. Ordinary people like me, who perhaps benefitted a bit due to higher wages and cheap oil, now are asked to pay 23 trillion back. In a way, you are calling all of us (who claim to be Christian) out for not listening to Jesus and being good socialists supporting the up and coming poor impoverished masses. Hey i get it. You wont hold my feet to any fire, however, with the words of jesus. I'll throw it all away in a heartbeat and i will stand with the populists who say that Trump is delaying the bankruptcy and demise of America because there is no way im paying anything back unless several things happen. 1) as jar says, everyone is paying. So that is a good thing. These other countries are becoming wealthier...let them help pay for global warming and infrastructure in global common areas. The United States is tired of being the sucker who pays the check for the whole table. And it is not impressionable on me that the West owes the world a payback loan. that will never happen without a major war. If I go down with the ship, the other ships will take a hit also. I'm just a struggling middle-class guy tryna retire. I'm not some noble Christian justice warrior giving everything away to help humanity. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
As I said, that is not the case. You (we) are being asked to pay for a thousand stolen meals in the past.
The United States is tired of being the sucker who pays the check for the whole table. Phat writes:
That would be stupid. Wars don't pay; they cost.
And it is not impressionable on me that the West owes the world a payback loan. that will never happen without a major war. Phat writes:
What an insane reaction.
If I go down with the ship, the other ships will take a hit also. Phat writes:
Then you have no business talking about Jesus. Call the voice in your head Carl. I'm not some noble Christian justice warrior giving everything away to help humanity."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: These other countries are becoming wealthier...let them help pay for global warming and infrastructure in global common areas. The other nations ARE paying; it is the US who opted out and said it would not pay its share.
Phat writes: The United States is tired of being the sucker who pays the check for the whole table. But the reality is that the US has never paid the check for anybody.
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Phat Member Posts: 18715 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
jar writes: Are you kidding me? We pay the lions share of military protection for countries such as Kuwait. We pay 25% of the UN budget. Our military umbrella shielded former enemies Japan and Germany for years, allowing them to rebuild economies that rivaled ours. Its time we took care of ourselves and quit helping everybody else...except those poorest and in true need. But the reality is that the US has never paid the check for anybody. Nobody will take care of us if we needed help. This whole globalism thing is rugged not to favor us, so why should we contribute?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Are you kidding me? We pay the lions share of military protection for countries such as Kuwait. We pay 25% of the UN budget. Our military umbrella shielded former enemies Japan and Germany for years, allowing them to rebuild economies that rivaled ours. Basics Phat. We did those things for profit and only for profit. We did it to keep our assets viable and to create markets for our products and for no other reasons.
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Phat Member Posts: 18715 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
We did those things for profit and only for profit. That's how a capitalist economy works. We will help the world fight global warming if there is at least a break-even profit in it. What we won't do is throw money at the problem. At least not unless its a global tax that every person must pay their share. We are not gonna sock our people with a higher bill just because we have a higher GDP. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Then you will pay in pain.
It really is that simple Phat.
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Phat Member Posts: 18715 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Tell me how I won't experience pain either way? The fact is that my generation is being stuck with the bill. Whether we refuse to pay it or whether we pay it, we will suffer either way. What does the evidence show?
I feel frustrated! On the one hand, you and ringo have convinced me of this argument that Jesus expects a lot of hard work with no promise of supernatural deliverance...an idea that enrages me. I won't allow myself to believe it. Then, should I decide to throw all that away, I am still faced with this idea that somehow we were owed this bill as a gift from reality and that we either pay it or suffer pain? I say that it is a bit like pushing us in a corner. The fact is that I didn't benefit that much from what the wealthy Robber barons did to the global population. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Tangle Member Posts: 9632 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Have you considered that it might not be all be about you?
It's worth remembering that in the lottery of life you're a winner, you've been born into a modern, wealthy Western democracy, the dice could have fallen very differently. The rest is up to you, you can waste your life whining about how unfair it all is and spending hours looking for hocus-pocus easy answers from a fictional god or just get on with it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 161 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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What you can do is fight the GOOD fight. Vote for only those willing to acknowledge the problems and also to address the problems. Do the little things you can do to make others lives better.
Run the race. Keep on keeping on. Speak out against the folk like the current Republican Party and anyone who claims that Jesus is gonna step in and fix the mess. Learn the real facts that are today's reality, the mistakes and errors the US is making and made in the past and find representatives that will reverse those dumb decisions.
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Phat Member Posts: 18715 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
You really have to reconsider your beliefs. Life is not simply a lottery and chance does not entirely determine your fate.
quote: GOD, if God exists did not set it up to be a rigged game of chance. He set it up more like chess. You protect the King. It is intentional. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Tangle Member Posts: 9632 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Phat writes: You really have to reconsider your beliefs. Life is not simply a lottery and chance does not entirely determine your fate. How do you manage to take exactly the wrong message from what people are saying so often? You seem to read everything through a Phat filter. Where you are born and who to is a lottery, that governs an enormous part of what is possible for you. Being born an orphan in a refugee camp in Libya is not going to be as easy as being born to middle class parents in Scandinavia is it? After that it's all about what you can do with the hand your dealt.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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