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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 446 of 531 (871677)
02-08-2020 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
02-08-2020 3:31 PM


Re: From Another Topic...
Phat writes:
Being a believer is about more than doing chores and following the message, however.
What does the evidence show Phat? The audience at TRUMP rallies is 100% believers.
Phat writes:
If you inherited a church, would you market anything more than doing chores?
No Phat. It would teach doing those chores.
quote:
And now, Father, send us out
to do the work you have given us to do,
to love and serve you
as faithful witnesses of Christ our Lord.
To him, to you, and to the Holy Spirit,
be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen.
The message is all about work Phat. The way that we are charged to witness is through what we do in our everyday lives, away from the communion and as part of everything we do. The Church is a place to gather to reflect on the week past and renew commitments for the coming week.
Phat writes:
You always ask how a relationship with Jesus is even possible. Why do you think they initially made a Book of Common Prayer? Were they simply talking to themselves?
That's simply stupid Phat and as always, totally irrelevant to the question of how a relationship with Jesus is even possible.
The main Purpose of the BCP is to provide a relatively uniform progression for a long term worship service; to incorporate the lessons found in the Bible and all other founding documents of Christianity into every single day of our life. It is about how to live life as a Christian THIS DAY among all others; those of the Faith and those outside. It is actually meant to be a part of life outside the church and directly in each household. Take a look at the Morning and Evening services section some time as both are designed to by led by laypeople and most often in individual homes as part of regular daily life.
Historically though the BCP like the later KJV was a political creation and designed to help establish order in England in 1549 during the break with the Church of Rome and so was created to provide an alternative to the Roman Catholic Lectionary and follows a similar design and only slightly modified content.
As an English political document it was abolished several times and then reinstated as the State Religion changed in England and has also been revised many times; each to reflect modern needs and mythos. Each revision has been contentious and several failed ratification.
Again, as a political as well as religious document is has evolved to be not just one thing but rather a spectrum of things which can be selected by individual congregations to reflect their local prejudices.
Phat writes:
The bigger concept is not simply about the zen of cheerfully doing chores.
Then present it Phat. What is the bigger concept?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 02-08-2020 3:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 10:20 AM jar has replied
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 11:08 AM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 450 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2020 1:08 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 449 of 531 (871687)
02-09-2020 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
02-09-2020 10:20 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:
And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.
Why Phat? Why does it bother you?
Phat writes:
Why do you feel it is productive, necessary, and dare I say even possible to "Throw God Away?"
Because ALL of the evidence shows that every single God(s) or god(s) is just the product of a human imagination and that they exist only so long as there are believers that they are more than just the product of a human imagination.
Phat writes:
The fact that nobody has ever been able to explain to you what a relationship with Jesus even is or how it is possible baffles and challenges me.
Yet the fact is that neither you or anyone else has ever explained what that means or how it could be possible.
Facts, evidence, counts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 10:20 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 455 of 531 (871704)
02-09-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Phat
02-09-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:
I won't even bother trying to explain that.
Exactly, just as you never explain how they can know they are talking with God.
Phat writes:
Human-Centric does not work when attempting to describe and define God.
Yet EVERY God or god ever described is described as human centric. They are all God(s) or god(s) in human form with human characteristics.
Phat writes:
You are proud of that, aren't you!
No Phat, I am not proud of reality. It is simply another fact.
Phat writes:
So again, what does it mean to you to believe and yet not dare to relate to the invisible presence in the room?
Yet another example of you misrepresenting reality. It is not a matter of what I dare, it is simply acknowledging that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to relate to the creator of that is, seen and unseen.
Phat writes:
It bothers me because it suggests that God is not necessary. It's like replacing God with yourself.
How is it replacing God with myself? Have I ever claimed to be God? Does not the Bible over and over say that it is humans that need to do? Who built and filled the graineries?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 457 of 531 (871710)
02-09-2020 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Phat
02-09-2020 4:55 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:
I'm not dismissing responsibility but communion with omnipotence sure helps.
And yet ...
You keep claiming something Phat but never present any support or evidence for the claim.
Phat writes:
So why not take a leap of faith and believe in God's power rather than our responsibility?
Because the Bible repeatedly says that it is our responsibility.
There is evidence of humans doing stuff but no evidence of God doing stuff.
It really is that simple. We are charged to be stewards of the Earth and all its inhabitants.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Phat, posted 02-09-2020 4:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 2:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 459 of 531 (871712)
02-10-2020 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by GDR
02-10-2020 2:15 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
LOL
I'm an an Episcopalian.
Edited by jar, : applin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 2:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 8:41 AM jar has replied
 Message 462 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 10:13 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 461 of 531 (871715)
02-10-2020 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Phat
02-10-2020 8:41 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Fortunately an Episcopalian does not have to check his brain at the door and in general they also know how to read.
You could learn from that.
Have I ever mentioned Jesus teachings?
Have I ever suggested following what Jesus said we should do?
Have I ever mentioned the fact the one of the purposes of the BCP is to bring worship into the house beyond some weekly event and make it part of the daily life?
Learn to think Phat.
Slogan cards are for the little minds.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 8:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 2:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 463 of 531 (871717)
02-10-2020 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by GDR
02-10-2020 10:13 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:
It seems to me that with your first statement it sounds as if you feel that God has simply left us to run the show and that there is now no connection between God and this world.
I don't see anyway to ever know if God is active in the world or not. It's very possible that God could influence a doctor to do one more test or try one more thing that results in a life saved or that God could effect the way things happened but even if that happened it would not be evidence of God doing anything. At best it could be called unknown or inexplicable or coincidence or surprising.
GDR writes:
Do you believe that there is a Holy Spirit as in the still small voice of God?
Again, I see absolutely no way to take that beyond some personal belief not founded on any evidence or to determine who that small voice might be other than testing the content against logic, reason and reality. In that case the actual source of the voice is irrelevant.
We can all have our personal beliefs but that is all that they are and so beliefs are pretty much irrelevant as well.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 10:13 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 11:15 AM jar has replied
 Message 472 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 8:05 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 466 of 531 (871720)
02-10-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by GDR
02-10-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:
OK, but I'm asking what it is that you believe.
And, in case you didn't notice, I have not answered. What I believe is irrelevant to anyone but me.
AbE: Of course asking why I believe is a valid question and I have tried repeatedly to answer that.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 11:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 12:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 468 of 531 (871722)
02-10-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by GDR
02-10-2020 12:12 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:
You spend considerable time attacking what other people believe without having the courage to talk about what you believe.
And that was simply a sophomoric stupid thing for you to say.
I have posted what I believe here many times over many years. But what I believe is still irrelevant.
And no, I do not attack others beliefs but instead ask why they believe what they believe.
Learn to read and comprehend. I believe you can do that.
Understand, I try very hard to never be unintentionally rude.
AbE: To offer more help
As an Anglican you are familiar with the "I believes" I imagine.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 12:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 1:23 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 471 of 531 (871731)
02-10-2020 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
02-10-2020 2:47 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:
And one thing that is evident is that you base your world view on Matthew 25 and have reinforced ringos similar philosophy. Y
No Phat, once again you misrepresent what I have said. Were the graineries in Matt 25?
Phat writes:
We are more interested in why you believe it, how you arrived at your conclusions, and why you--unique among Christians we know--cant simply accept what many others accept without not only questioning it but trashing it.
And there is that nonsense again. Phat, I have posted my beliefs over and over again here at EvC but it seems you and some others are incapable of reading them or retaining the information for more that 15 seconds.
Phat writes:
You can say you are, and you can retreat into the domain of personal business, but you cant convince us that you believe the way that we believe.
Thank God I do not believe the way you believe.
As I told GDR I try very hard not to be unintentionally rude.
Phat writes:
Convince me why it would be helpful for me to throw God away and what precisely that would mean in regard to thinking.
I cannot and have no reason to convince you to throw God away but can only repeat the possible reasons that you should; even though you know the reasons but admit that you do not like them. There is no need even to repeat them yet again Phat, you often repeat them yourself. You do not want a God that says you have to do it on your own and that God is NOT gonna clean up after you again.
Edited by jar, : there needs to be a "k" in thank

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 02-10-2020 2:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 473 of 531 (871735)
02-10-2020 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by GDR
02-10-2020 8:05 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:
Is God deistic in that He no longer has any influence in our world of space and time, or are you theistic in your beliefs, believing that God does still interact in this world?
I honestly have no idea and can see no possible way to answer that. It really is irrelevant. I'm not even sure it has any meaning.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 8:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 9:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 475 of 531 (871737)
02-10-2020 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by GDR
02-10-2020 9:08 PM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
And again, I am telling you that it is simply irrelevant and hardly worth any more time or effort. There is absolutely no way to know about any such source and so regardless of whether or not you believe that the small quiet voice is God it is up to you to test the content against logic, reason and reality. Even the direct voice of God is not beyond questioning.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by GDR, posted 02-10-2020 9:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by GDR, posted 02-11-2020 2:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 477 of 531 (871744)
02-11-2020 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by GDR
02-11-2020 2:09 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
GDR writes:
So you're saying then that your agnostic.
Once again you simply show your inability to read or to retain what you read longer than 15 seconds.
I am a believer, an Episcopalian and I am familiar with the "I believes".
But all that is irrelevant. Regardless of who we believe the source might be we are charged to test the content against logic, reason and reality.
Remember all the times I have discussed Genesis 18 here?
Edited by jar, : wrong key

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by GDR, posted 02-11-2020 2:09 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Phat, posted 02-11-2020 9:13 AM jar has replied
 Message 482 by GDR, posted 02-11-2020 12:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 480 of 531 (871751)
02-11-2020 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Phat
02-11-2020 9:13 AM


Re: Two Commandments & Two Questions
Phat writes:
The content of what? Of the books, we have read? The priests we have learned from? The teachers? What about the content of our own preconceived notions, beliefs, and hopes and dreams?
Yes to all of the above but above all we need to question our own preconceived notions, beliefs, and hopes and dreams.
Phat writes:
What if God is illogical, often felt to be unreasonable, and not discernible in reality?
Think Phat, think. Your statement presupposes that it is possible to know those things about God and yet again, what does the evidence show? Look at the characteristics of the God characters in the Bible as a beginning point and then look beyond. How about a God who lost his eye and the lost eye set out on an independent journey and created all the original people of Egypt.
We've been over this many times Phat. The God of Genesis 1 fits your criteria as does the entirely different God of the Exodus folk tales.
Have people believed in all of those Gods?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Phat, posted 02-11-2020 9:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 483 of 531 (871755)
02-11-2020 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by GDR
02-11-2020 12:29 PM


feel all better now?
You said somewhere along the line that you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus
No, I say it doesn't matter if it happened or not.
You say you don't believe that
No, I say that there is no evidence of such a thing and no way to determine if there is such a thing.
Really GDR, learn to read; it's not all that hard.
Honestly, I do not just call myself an Episcopalian but I am also registered as an Episcopalian and even have my name on the wall of an Episcopal chapel.
You can settle on whatever fool thing makes you feel good but it has no basis in truth or reality.
Edited by jar, : missed it by ...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by GDR, posted 02-11-2020 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by dwise1, posted 02-11-2020 2:30 PM jar has not replied
 Message 485 by GDR, posted 02-12-2020 2:29 AM jar has replied

  
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