Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,208 Year: 5,465/9,624 Month: 490/323 Week: 130/204 Day: 4/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 319 of 531 (871225)
01-30-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
01-30-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended.
Phat writes:
... I was not transformed as much as I would have been taught to expect.
You were taught to expect a transformation.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 6:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 10:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 323 of 531 (871231)
01-30-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
01-30-2020 10:59 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
And I actually felt one...
As I pointed out, you felt what you were taught to feel.
Phat writes:
Despite you claiming that I never follow the message, I helped feed, clothe, and encourage people as well as visiting many in prison...for a period of nearly 20 years.
You helping people has never been the issue. The issue is that you deny what Jesus said.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 10:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 335 of 531 (871287)
01-31-2020 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
01-31-2020 12:39 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
As I pointed out, you felt what you were taught to feel.
That's quite an assertion coming from you.
It isn't my assertion. It's what you said, in Message 312: "The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended."
You experienced what you were taught to expect.
Phat writes:
... you seem to dismiss any experiences I have had which differed from what you or anyone else has had.
I don't dismiss your experiences. I dismiss your interpretation of your experiences - not because they are different from anybody else's but because they're the same. You interpret your experiences the same way as other fundies interpret their experiences because you have been taught to interpret them that way.
Phat writes:
... you have no idea what I have believed, (apart from my words here at the Forum) the experiences I have had hearing actual voices (also heard by two others) and feeling my hair stand on end.
On the contrary, I have a pretty good idea because I have heard the same interpretation from a lot of other people.
Phat writes:
Nor the confirming events which supported my otherwise illogical beliefs.
Well, there you go. Your pre-existing beliefs were supported. Confirmation bias.
Phat writes:
There are unexplained events in life...
This is what bugs me most about believers. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?
Phat writes:
Jesus. (Whom you don't believe existed anyway, so I find it a waste of time to argue with you about it)
That is not how debate works. You're supposed to debate the point made regardless of whether your counterpart believes it or not.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The issue is that you deny what Jesus said
Unlike Tangle, I don't believe that Jesus was simply a character in a book. What Jesus says to me is more than some ancient written down scripture.
Maybe you really don't understand how absurd that sounds. You actually put the voices in your head before the only external source you have. What arrogance. What hubris.
Phat writes:
You and your Dad must have been a pair! He taught you how to read the bible in a common-sense way...
No he didn't. His beliefs were pretty similar to yours.
Phat writes:
... and you turned it against organized religion and the church.
I turned it against stupidity and lies.
Phat writes:
You will be surprised someday when your precious global socialists end up fighting along with the rest of the people as resources grow scarce.
Resources have always been scarce. The way humans react is by getting together and producing more resources.
Phat writes:
It will only be then when you may find your charge against me will apply to you.
I have not made any charge against you. I don't know why you're so defensive about that.
Phat writes:
He exists.
No. He doesn't. He never did. But the principle attributed to Him is a good one.
Phat writes:
ringo is not in charge nor free to rebel without consequences.
ringo is responsible for doing it himself. Nobody else is going to do it for him.
Phat writes:
And no, global socialism will never work as long as human nature is as it is.
It already does. Get a grip on reality.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 3:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 336 of 531 (871288)
01-31-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by foreveryoung
01-31-2020 1:15 AM


foreveryoung writes:
It seems to me the criteria for labeling someone as being in a cult is simply believing the miracles in the bible are true.
No. The criterion for recognizing that somebody is in a (mind-control) cult is that they refuse to look at any sources outside the cult.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by foreveryoung, posted 01-31-2020 1:15 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 349 of 531 (871330)
01-31-2020 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
01-31-2020 3:59 PM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
...it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced.
And you interpreted your experience the way you were taught to interpret it.
Phat writes:
They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally,
And you simply can't grasp the idea that IF God exists, it would be an immense coincidence if He happened to be anything like the God you learned about.
Phat writes:
... but among these believers, there is little if any controversy.
Among most groups of believers there is little controversy - Mormons, Scientologists, etc. One of the hallmarks of a cult is lack of controversy.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.
Nonsense.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 11:15 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 351 of 531 (871358)
02-01-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
02-01-2020 11:15 AM


Re: Tot For tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
No, we interpreted our experience based on what we felt while experiencing it.
That's circular.
Phat writes:
You can easily teach a parishioner to jump up and down and act excited, but you cannot give them the will to do it.
On the contrary, it is much easier to encourage somebody to fit in by conforming with everybody else.
Phat writes:
What if He sought us out?
As I have said before, you'd have to have a monumental ego to believe that a god would seek you out and ignore billions of others.
Phat writes:
After all, there is really only one of him.
That has not been established. There's nothing in your "experiences" to indicate that. It's just something that your handlers have told you to parrot.
Phat writes:
We experienced God.
You experienced something. So did Muhammad. There's no reason to think your experience was different from his.
Phat writes:
... God is good rather than schizophrenic and evil as you suggest scripture itself supports.
And yet you don't even try to support your claim.
Phat writes:
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 500,000 of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, as a cult.
I'm not. I'm labellng your version as a cult.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.
ringo writes:
Nonsense
I'd like to hear others.
The context is Message 335: "This is what bugs me most about believers. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?"
Some other explanations include
  • other gods: Aten, Baal, Cthulu, Dagon... Zeus
  • aliens
  • mental illness
  • plain old being wrong
Phat writes:
I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable.
Nobody cares what you consider acceptable.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 11:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 3:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 531 (871415)
02-02-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
02-01-2020 3:17 PM


Re: Tit For Tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
Oh so its *my* version now, is it?
Yes, *your* version, just like the US is *your* country.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
other gods: Aten, Baal, Cthulu, Dagon... Zeus
Unlikely but hypothetically possible.
They're every bit as likely as your God.
Phat writes:
For now, aliens are simply unevidenced and unexplained.
They're more evidenced than your God. We know that life exists. And mathematically, it's almost inevitable that some of it is more "advanced" than we are. The only part that's unexplained is how they could have got here.
Phat writes:
I consider many of such sightings demonic, but that is my own subjective conclusion.
Now that is crazy.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
mental illness
entirely possible on an individual level.
We're a social species. Mass hysteria exists. Wikipedia
Phat writes:
In my mind, you and jar both suppressed belief because you were taught to only have evidence of supportable belief.
Why do you have that in your mind when I've told you so many times that it isn't true? I told you only yesterday that my father's beliefs were similar to yours. That's what I was taught.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 02-01-2020 3:17 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2020 1:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 364 of 531 (871422)
02-02-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Theodoric
02-02-2020 1:55 PM


Re: Tit For Tat starring ringo and phat.
Theodoric writes:
And why the hell would I be mad at some entity that does not exist.
I'd be mad at the leprechauns if they existed - keeping the price of gold artificially high, little bastards.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2020 1:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Theodoric, posted 02-02-2020 2:03 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 02-02-2020 2:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 370 of 531 (871429)
02-02-2020 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
02-02-2020 2:15 PM


Re: Tit For Tat starring ringo and phat.
Phat writes:
... nobody would want to be the guy holding a lot of gold when guns are clearly outnumbering it bar for bar.
Many years ago (and many end-of-the-world scenarios ago) somebody said that in the future you would need a shotgun, a bicycle, canned sardines and gold coins.
Phat writes:
A God is "likely" only if that god is useful to you.
Nonsense. The likelihood of anything has nothing whatsoever to do with its usefulness, either real or imagined.
Phat writes:
Since you rely on "evidence" rather than need...
What on earth has need got to do with it?
Phat writes:
If such a scenario occurred, there would be mass hysteria.
There IS mass hysteria. There always HAS BEEN mass hysteria. It has nothing to do with your silly apocalyptic scenarios.
I'm saying that your "experiences" of god, your whole religion, might well be a form of mass hysteria.
Phat writes:
And you became a born again evidentialist...I get the picture.
No. You really don't.
Phat writes:
Apply your evidence to Climate Change+Economic Collapse Likelihood+Human Nature. What do you see in the next 100 years?
Economies collapse on a pretty regular basis. It's never the end of the world.
Climate change won't be the end of the world either. Where I live will likely improve - but if we become a tropical paradise we'll have the damn tourists.
And human nature is not what you portray.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 02-02-2020 2:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 403 of 531 (871560)
02-05-2020 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Theodoric
02-04-2020 1:18 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Latino dad told to 'stay in Mexico'
What if the Mexicans tell him to go back to Spain?
My ancestors came to Canada from Ukraine - but they were not Ukrainian. They moved to Ukraine from Poland - but they were not Polish. They moved to Poland from the Netherlands; I don't know how they got there - it was four hundred years ago.
I always wonder how far back the "go back where you came from" is supposed to go. Maybe we should all go back to the Olduvai Gorge.
But of course the racists don't care where you, "go back to." What they really mean is, "get away from here."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2020 1:18 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 404 of 531 (871562)
02-05-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Phat
02-04-2020 1:20 PM


Re: My take on the origins of Christianity
Phat writes:
... I dismiss those assertions.
I dismiss your dismissal. That was easy.
Phat writes:
... far too many people follow the teachings of their Pastors without even reading the news or listening directly to what the "other side" says...
*cough* cult leaders *cough*

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Phat, posted 02-04-2020 1:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 415 of 531 (871597)
02-06-2020 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Tangle
02-06-2020 2:41 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Tangle writes:
... they are terms that target individuals because of the colour of their skin and only because of the colour of their skin.
That's too broad a definition. Racism implies that one group is superior to another group and assumed superiority results in the gathering of power to the "superior" group. You are not racist if you are powerless.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2020 2:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by jar, posted 02-06-2020 11:03 AM ringo has replied
 Message 421 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2020 12:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 426 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-06-2020 6:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 417 of 531 (871600)
02-06-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by jar
02-06-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
jar writes:
You can be a helpless racist when powerless. But racism itself is not a problem rather it is behavior regardless of the cause that is the issue.
You contradict yourself. You can not have racist behavior without power.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by jar, posted 02-06-2020 11:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 02-06-2020 11:28 AM ringo has replied
 Message 422 by jar, posted 02-06-2020 12:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 419 of 531 (871602)
02-06-2020 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
02-06-2020 11:28 AM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Phat writes:
But I think its a rabbit trail off of Charismatic behavior in general anyway.
OP writes:
Were Jesus to return tomorrow, would He find contemporary public Christianity to be applauded or would He see it as reprehensible?
He would find the same Pharisees that He found the first time - mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" while passing by the half-dead traveler on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 02-06-2020 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 428 of 531 (871628)
02-07-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Tangle
02-06-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Whining for A Free pass
Tangle writes:
Well ok if you need to be dictionary precise about it, I'll settle for racially prejudiced instead of racist.
Yes, your dictionary definition says exactly what I said, "Racism involves one group having the power to carry out systematic discrimination....[/qs]

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2020 12:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024