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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 316 of 531 (871220)
01-30-2020 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
01-30-2020 9:16 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
I don't quite get what you dislike about Biblical Christianity.
I dislike the fact that they misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible and NEVER, EVER actually teach what is reported to have been said by Jesus.
I dislike the fact that they create and market a total complete fantasy and deny the fact that throughout the Bible the lesson is that humans must do what is needed. Who built and filled the graineries?
We need to build and fill the graineries.
We need to heal the sick.
We need to clothe the naked.
We need to shelter the homeless.
We need to protect the weak.
We need to feed the hungry.
Biblical Christianity today markets only the Lillies of the Field and sells the Get Outta Hell Cards.
It is a perversion of what is actually contained in the Bible stories or what Jesus preached.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:53 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 317 of 531 (871221)
01-30-2020 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by jar
01-27-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
jar writes:
...I think you are still under the really silly idea that the story is really about God or obedience or sin and not about the transition from the earlier nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle to the latter settled farming lifestyle.
Of course, the story was written by ancient peoples likely transitioning from hunter-gatherers into farmers. And they would not even mention God were God not part of their active daily thoughts. They likely felt a need to pray to Him in order for their crops to thrive, be protected from locusts and plague, and adequate rain. The stories go deeper, however. These were people who sought to know a bit more about God and wrote what their fireside storytelling implied.
You claim that there are many god characters in the Bible, but I would argue that it is just people attempting to describe the one they prayed to. It's entirely logical to have many stories and ideas about the same Deity and form an evolving consensus among the community. I believe though cannot prove that God actually does bother communing in some way with the humans increasingly throughout history.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 11:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 318 of 531 (871223)
01-30-2020 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by jar
01-30-2020 9:36 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
jar writes:
Biblical Christianity today markets only the Lillies of the Field and sells the Get Outta Hell Cards.
But it also markets that a relationship with Jesus Christ is possible. And you don't. Nobody wants to be taught that Christianity is but an obligation to society and is hard and often thankless work.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 9:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 10:56 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 319 of 531 (871225)
01-30-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
01-30-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended.
Phat writes:
... I was not transformed as much as I would have been taught to expect.
You were taught to expect a transformation.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 6:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 10:59 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 320 of 531 (871226)
01-30-2020 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Phat
01-30-2020 9:53 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
Nobody wants to be taught that Christianity is but an obligation to society and is hard and often thankless work.
Exactly. That is why the easy sell product is what Biblical Christianity markets.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 11:06 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 321 of 531 (871227)
01-30-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
01-30-2020 10:43 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
ringo writes:
You were taught to expect a transformation.
And I actually felt one...a big one that has essentially endured to this day, though it was strong off and on over the years. Despite you claiming that I never follow the message, I helped feed, clothe, and encourage people as well as visiting many in prison...for a period of nearly 20 years. As I grew comfortable sitting in front of a computer and doing nothing but working, I lost the feeling of anointing that I had while serving. Now, to be honest, I am but a bag of hot air...quoting scriptures that I don't see evidence of being alive. Unlike you, I refuse to lose the shackles of organized religion nor of ever even considering throwing god away. I don't frankly feel secure
in any way without God having my back.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 01-30-2020 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 01-30-2020 11:05 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 322 of 531 (871228)
01-30-2020 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
01-30-2020 9:51 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Word salad again Phat and utter nonsense.
Reality Phat.
Judah and Israel were different societies with different beliefs and different practices.
Phat writes:
I believe though cannot prove that God actually does bother communing in some way with the humans increasingly throughout history.
No one doubts that you do believe that Phat. But ...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 323 of 531 (871231)
01-30-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
01-30-2020 10:59 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Phat writes:
And I actually felt one...
As I pointed out, you felt what you were taught to feel.
Phat writes:
Despite you claiming that I never follow the message, I helped feed, clothe, and encourage people as well as visiting many in prison...for a period of nearly 20 years.
You helping people has never been the issue. The issue is that you deny what Jesus said.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 10:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:39 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 324 of 531 (871232)
01-30-2020 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by jar
01-30-2020 10:56 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
My point is this: If One cannot actually feel any connection with God and is expected to simply do community service as a religion, why even have the religion. I could then see how someone would throw God away. The idea would simply be a creation of their mind anyway.
You can and have told me that you believe in GOD but realize that She is likely unlike anything humans teach, but to me, your belief is no more special than believing in the spirit of Santa Claus and dressing up like him to entertain the children.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 10:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 11:16 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 325 of 531 (871233)
01-30-2020 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
01-30-2020 11:06 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the capitalized ones are)
Phat writes:
If One cannot actually feel any connection with God and is expected to simply do community service as a religion, why even have the religion.
Many, many do just that Phat. But what does that have to do with beliefs?
Phat writes:
You can and have told me that you believe in GOD but realize that She is likely unlike anything humans teach, but to me, your belief is no more special than believing in the spirit of Santa Claus and dressing up like him to entertain the children.
Am I you?
How many times have I said that I believe that after death I will be judged by God?
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 11:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:49 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 326 of 531 (871271)
01-31-2020 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by ringo
01-30-2020 11:05 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
ringo writes:
As I pointed out, you felt what you were taught to feel.
That's quite an assertion coming from you. Were I to tell you what you believed, you would sharply correct me yet you seem to dismiss any experiences I have had which differed from what you or anyone else has had. In fact, I think that it was *you* who once swallowed hook line and sinker what you were taught to believe and finally stepped out of what you say were shackles of organized religion.
This is well and good, but you have no idea what I have believed, (apart from my words here at the Forum) the experiences I have had hearing actual voices (also heard by two others) and feeling my hair stand on end. Nor the confirming events which supported my otherwise illogical beliefs.
This was no reality TV show. James Randi didn't walk from the wings, snatch the million-dollar check from the leader's hand, and proclaim that science must and has ruled triumphant.
There are unexplained events in life...and in organized and unorganized religion and spirituality.
Now to be clear, I admit that people can be easily duped. I allow for the majority of the circus to be a con and/or livelihood for many Pastors, Teachers, and Leaders. I may have been fooled a time or two, but I won't simply accept your logic that such things don't happen simply because science says that they cannot and have not happened.
So to wrap it up...getting back to the boring redefinition of Christianity as a simple secular humanist do-gooders club:
ringo writes:
You helping people has never been the issue. The issue is that you deny what Jesus said.
I'm thinking that your charge against me is based on Matthew 25--that what I do to the least of these I, in fact, do to Jesus. (Whom you don't believe existed anyway, so I find it a waste of time to argue with you about it)
The issue is that you deny what Jesus said
Unlike Tangle, I don't believe that Jesus was simply a character in a book. What Jesus says to me is more than some ancient written down scripture. The One whom you deny exists and existed listens to my prayers, sob stories, and whining and often gives me an insight that I would never expect. He is not simply some magic Genie in my mind. In case I missed it, explain what specifically I deny. If it has to do with loving the least of these, I will confess that it is an ongoing issue. I won't simply help anyone who holds up a sign. If it turns out that on judgment day I am informed that it was Jesus Himself who held the sign that day, you will have a valid charge against me. Until then, you don't know squat about what I do, whom I help, and how I talk (and listen) in Communion with Jesus.
You and your Dad must have been a pair! He taught you how to read the bible in a common-sense way and you turned it against organized religion and the church. I can only say that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! Yes, I am a bit worked up. You will be surprised someday when your precious global socialists end up fighting along with the rest of the people as resources grow scarce. It will only be then when you may find your charge against me will apply to you. He exists. ringo is not in charge nor free to rebel without consequences. And no, global socialism will never work as long as human nature is as it is.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 01-30-2020 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2020 2:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 335 by ringo, posted 01-31-2020 11:11 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 327 of 531 (871273)
01-31-2020 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
01-30-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the capitalized ones are)
jar writes:
How many times have I said that I believe that after death I will be judged by God?
And yet you ridicule the apologetic definitions of God's (and Jesus's) character. The God Who will judge you is unknowable by you.
At that time, you might consider the question you always ask me: How Will You Know It Is God? (Doing the judging) You can't simply say that as long as you are alive you cannot have any clue as to God's nature and in the same breath say that you believe that you will someday be judged by this same unknown entity. Thankfully, I think you are wrong about being judged by what you do. He will give you a break on the many times you have killed someone's faith and led them astray solely because of your questionable Theological outlook.
Am I you?
No, thank God! (For the behalf of both of us!)
I do agree with you that we will be judged on what we believe, what we did, weighing our deeds against our ignored actions that we could have done, and knowing that the Judge will have perfect knowledge of our intentions as well as our actions.
I don't know why the idea of a free pass irritates you so much. The pass was not easily obtained. And there may be lessons for many who confidently think they have a backstage pass. As you said, the get Out Of Hell Free Card may be stamped "Not Valid". But then again...we have not taken our Final Exam yet.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by jar, posted 01-31-2020 8:01 AM Phat has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 328 of 531 (871274)
01-31-2020 1:15 AM


Someone, a long time ago said I belonged to a cult. I'm betting it was jar. I dont participate here anymore, but that remark came back to my memory just now. It seems to me the criteria for labeling someone as being in a cult is simply believing the miracles in the bible are true.

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 01-31-2020 11:14 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 339 by Theodoric, posted 01-31-2020 3:15 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 329 of 531 (871275)
01-31-2020 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
01-31-2020 12:39 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
Tangle writes:
The One whom you deny exists and existed listens to my prayers, sob stories, and whining and often gives me an insight that I would never expect.
So how come you're so bloody miserable and unhappy with your life? I don't have the help of the almighty to keep my pecker up, so how is it I'm doing less whining?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 330 of 531 (871276)
01-31-2020 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Phat
01-31-2020 12:49 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the capitalized ones are)
Phat writes:
And yet you ridicule the apologetic definitions of God's (and Jesus's) character.
Correct!
Phat writes:
At that time, you might consider the question you always ask me: How Will You Know It Is God?
Well, the first clue might be the fact that I'm dead and getting judged. Really Phat, think.
Phat writes:
I do agree with you that we will be judged on what we believe, what we did, weighing our deeds against our ignored actions that we could have done, and knowing that the Judge will have perfect knowledge of our intentions as well as our actions.
But again you misrepresent what I have said repeatedly. Why do you try to rewrite my position to fit your needs? I have never said we will be judged based on our beliefs and do not think beliefs will have any relevance at all.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 12:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 01-31-2020 9:24 AM jar has replied

  
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