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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 334 (863730)
09-29-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
09-29-2019 4:08 PM


Re: sheesh!
Faith writes:
In other words you can never believe anything anyone ever tells you about something you haven't seen.
No. I'm saying that the evidence is no longer avaialable, so it does not carry the same weight for people today. All we have left is the second-hand, third-hand, etc. watering-down of the actual evidence and no, we certainly can not believe that without corroboration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 4:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 4:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 09-29-2019 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 304 of 334 (863782)
09-30-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Faith
09-29-2019 4:21 PM


Re: sheesh!
Faith writes:
And I am saying that is ridiculously spurious reasoning.
But you haven't pointed out anything ridiculous or spurious about it.
Thomas didn't believe the disciples. He waited for the first-hand evidence that they claimed to have seen. Clearly, he thought that hearsay was less reliable than hard evidence. And Jesus didn't rebuke him for his skepticism; rather He offered the hard evidence.
Why should we have lower standards than Thomas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 09-29-2019 4:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 305 of 334 (863784)
09-30-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
09-29-2019 5:07 PM


Re: sheesh!
Phat writes:
If you felt that you had a conversion experience...
What would that feel like?
Phat writes:
...and if that inner feeling persisted for the next week...then a month...would you by challenging and doubting it be any better off?
You're always better off getting to the truth of a matter instead of clinging to a subjective impression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 09-29-2019 5:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 11:55 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 307 of 334 (863789)
09-30-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
09-30-2019 11:55 AM


Re: sheesh!
Phat writes:
You don't get it though---I was different.
I asked how you would recognize that difference.
Phat writes:
I'm talking 180 degrees different. A totally new awareness.
So why is that awareness not manifest in your understanding here?
Phat writes:
Is Jesus alive in my heart and mind or is it just me and always was and will be me?
I keep asking, if Jesus was alive in your heart and mind - whatever that means - how would you know? How would you tell the difference between that and Loki being alive in your heart and mind?
Phat writes:
You don't expect any obligation from God to leave objective evidence unless he planned on blessing everybody with the same gift.
Why would the "gift" be given to certain people and not to others? Why would the gift be given mostly to people whose relatives and neighbours had been given the same gift? Why would it be a gift at all and not just standard equipment?
Phat writes:
Scripture clearly says that few will be chosen.
Does it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 11:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 01-05-2020 3:47 PM ringo has replied
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-05-2020 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 310 of 334 (869789)
01-05-2020 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
01-05-2020 3:47 PM


Re: Old Arguments Revisited
Phat writes:
We know yor position regarding this.
It isn't "my position". It's what the Bible says.
Phat writes:
But consider: Satan was "like God" in a sense.
You're the one who thinks that Satan exists as a single entity. I have told you before that the Big Bad Wolf who dies in Little Red Riding Hood is not necessarily the same Big Bad Wolf who dies in The Three Little Pigs.
Phat writes:
A&E fell only in the sense that they learned to think for themselves before they were ready to graduate.
If they learned to think for themselves, they were ready to graduate.
Phat writes:
We can argue all day whether or not growing up in the sense of growing independent is always a good thing.
So go ahead, make an argument that independence is a bad thing.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Denying Jesus Christ is rational and logical.
You really need to explain yourself here.
I think I have. No evidence that unicorns exist is the same as no evidence that Christ existed. You're the one who needs to explain how that is not logical and rational.
Phat writes:
There you go again, falling back on your chosen understanding.
There's no "choice" involved. It's what the Bible says. How can becoming like God be a fall?
Phat writes:
If there was no fall, there would be no need for a redeemer.
Correct. There isn't.
Phat writes:
Are you prepared to defend that premise?
Yup. Been there. Done that.
Phat writes:
What is the story meant to teach?
To begin with, the talking snake should be your first clue that it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
Phat writes:
Is it teaching limited to the audience for which it was written?
Who is your phone bill meant for? Maybe some detective can glean some useful information from it to solve some crime. Or maybe in the future some archaeologist might gain some insights about our society from it. But isn't it fairly obvious that it's meant for the addressee?
Phat writes:
If in fact, the "apologists" got it all wrong, why are they all in agreement with each other while you and a few other skeptics remain outliers?
That appeal to popularity is getting tiresome. You can stop using it any time.
If the apologists' arguments are so persuasive, why can't you repeat them in your own words?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 01-05-2020 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 311 of 334 (869797)
01-05-2020 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-05-2020 3:56 PM


Re: Bringing The Arguments Here
Phat writes:
My "fruit" needs no defending from me.
Sure it does. If you're going to claim that your "experiences" with God have "transformed" you (presumably into a better human being), then there should be some external sign of that transformation. By your fruits we shall know you. Do you know who said that?
We're warned to beware of false prophets so yes, you do need to show the world that you're not one of them.
Phat writes:
You claim that the job of a human is to help others.
No, I don't claim anything. I have observed - and it's a fairly common observation - that humans are a social species that has a better chance of survival if we help each other. I have also observed that there are no signs of any spooks helping us help each other, so yes, any and all gods are functionally irrelevant.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-05-2020 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 321 of 334 (869884)
01-07-2020 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
01-06-2020 7:40 PM


Re: Topic
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to anyone that if a supernatural realm and subsequent "war" does exist, evidence would by necessity be rare?
No.
What "necessity"?
It sounds more like an excuse for no evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 01-06-2020 7:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 01-07-2020 11:19 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 01-07-2020 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 328 of 334 (869903)
01-07-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
01-07-2020 1:35 PM


Re: Topic
Phat writes:
It is a proposed fact.
"Proposed fact"? Who are you? Donald Trump?
Phat writes:
Spirit cannot be detected except through one's response and reactions to it.
But why is it "necessary" that those responses and reactions are not objective?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 01-07-2020 1:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 329 of 334 (869904)
01-07-2020 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
01-07-2020 1:39 PM


Re: Topic
Phat writes:
The dark side is easier, more attractive, and less restrictive than is the narrow path. I myself can attest to this. ringo claims i never follow the message, but I do as much as any of you.
I have not said that you don't do "enough". I do object to you denying Jesus and what He told you to do.
But what has that got to do with any supposed "spiritual warfare"?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-07-2020 1:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
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