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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 226 of 830 (869596)
01-02-2020 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by dwise1
01-02-2020 2:10 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
More importantly Faith removes any element of objectivity in the definition. She might as well say that humans and monkeys are the same species.
Of course she’s just trying to cover up another of her ignorant mistakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2020 2:10 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 2:26 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 232 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2020 2:45 PM PaulK has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 227 of 830 (869597)
01-02-2020 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
01-02-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
My point is that if you sincerely try to think through the trial and error required to get from one type of heart to the one you think it evolved to, you will discover that it is simply impossible.
Why are you talking about "trial and error" when Meddle and Sarah Bellum are talking about evolution? Don't you understand how evolution works?
Here's an analogy. A person navely believes that television works like live stage performances work, by having actual people inside the box acting out all the action. That's not so far-fetched, given the many comedy sketches (including one by Monty Python) of a TV with a live person inside the box. Based on that misunderstanding of how TV works, that person decides and declares that it is impossible for TV to work. Never mind everybody else's repeated attempts to explain to that person how television actually works. Never mind that anyone can see for themselves that television does indeed actually work. Nope, that person refuses to accept that television could ever possibly work because he has used his gross misunderstanding to "soundly" refute television for all time.
Now, if you could explain in sufficient detail how you imagine the evolution of a four-chamber heart from a 3-1/2-chamber heart would have to occur, then perhaps we could have a meaningful discussion. We have certainly tried to describe our understanding to you, though all in vain. You have yet to describe your misunderstanding to us, so we can have no idea how you could have arrived at your false conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 2:28 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 228 of 830 (869598)
01-02-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by PaulK
01-02-2020 2:18 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
Weird idea. The differences between humans and chimps is at LEAST as great as the differences between sheep and goats or deer etc. Lots of similarities, lots of differences. But all those trilobites have an identical form, shape etc., and identical appendages. Yes I can demonstrate it if I have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 2:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 2:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 246 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2020 4:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 830 (869599)
01-02-2020 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by dwise1
01-02-2020 2:23 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
As I have argued, the only way you can get from one species to another is by trial and error through mutations. That is an entirely different process from microevolution in which all the variations are built into the genome and simply appear through sexual recombination in the case of sexually reproducing creatures. That is what I've been arguing. You don't like it? Oh dear.
You have to get a genetic change that allows for the development of a fourth chamber. Since it isn't built into the genome the only way you are going to get it is by many different mutations that are probably not going to get you anywhere near that result . ever, but at least in bazillions of tries. Just think it through and stop complaining.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2020 2:23 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 230 of 830 (869602)
01-02-2020 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
01-02-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
quote:
Weird idea. The differences between humans and chimps is at LEAST as great as the differences between sheep and goats or deer etc.
i won’t bother arguing with that point since the important fact is that there are bigger differences between trilobites - so it isn’t a weird idea at all. Indeed since the trilobites and the primates are both classified as Orders it is an entirely reasonable idea.
The weird idea is redefining species so it includes an entire Order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 2:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 2:41 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 231 of 830 (869603)
01-02-2020 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by PaulK
01-02-2020 2:39 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
Weird it may be, but the case can be made. I think I made it somewhere here a while back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 2:39 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 2:50 PM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 232 of 830 (869605)
01-02-2020 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by PaulK
01-02-2020 2:18 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
More importantly Faith removes any element of objectivity in the definition. She might as well say that humans and monkeys are the same species.
But of course. It's so obvious.
This is from my page, The Bullfrog Affair. It generally covers creationist claims about interspecies protein comparisons using Duane Gish's infamous deliberate lie on national TV about a protein that shows humans and bullfrogs to be more closely related (HINT: no such protein exists and Gish's attempts to cover up his lie are telling). This excerpt is the start of that story (disclaimer: formatting is poor, because it's a repost of my contribution to a CompuServe library, so I was restricted to strictly ASCII):
quote:
In a recent article in _Discover_ magazine, Dr. Russell Doolittle tells
how his early research in protein comparisons had sparked his interest in
evolution. In a 1982 PBS program ("Creation vs Evolution: Battle in the
Classroom", KPBS-TV, aired 7 July 1982), he told this story:
Doolittle: "Ever since the time of Darwin the chimpanzee has been
regarded as man's nearest living relative. Naturally it was then
of interest to biochemists to see what chimpanzee proteins would
look like. Now the first protein to be looked at in a chimpanzee,
and compared with a human, was the hemoglobin molecule -- hemoglobin
one of the blood proteins -- and in fact, there were no differences
found in the chimpanzee molecule when 141 amino acids were looked at
in the hemoglobin alpha chain. In contrast, if you looked at a
rhesus monkey, there were four differences; or if you looked at a
rabbit, you found the differences got up into the 20s. If you got
up to a chicken you'd find 59 differences; and if you looked at a
fish you'd find there were more than a hundred differences. Now
this is exactly what you expect from the point of view of evolution."
Narrator: "Three more proteins were analyzed."
Doolittle: "Once again, no differences compared -- chimpanzee
compared with human. It was astonishing. In fact a rumor began
to sweep around biochemists, that maybe all the differences
between chimpanzee and human were really going to turn out to be
cultural. Well, in fact, one more protein was quickly looked at
-- this was a large one -- 259 amino acids -- and a difference
was found. Whew!"
A "rumor began to sweep around biochemists, that maybe all the differences between chimpanzee and human were really going to turn out to be cultural."
Later on that page I give Gish's response on that same PBS show (ie, on national TV):
quote:
The Bullfrog Affair itself starts with the KPBS production, "Creation vs
Evolution: Battle in the Classroom", which aired 7 July 1982. After Dr.
Doolittle related his story of the chimpanzee blood proteins (see above), Dr.
Duane Gish responded:
"If we look at certain proteins, yes man then, it can be assumed
that man is more closely related to a chimpanzee than other things.
But, on the other hand, if you look at certain proteins, you will
find that man is more closely related to a bullfrog than he is to a
chimpanzee. If you focus your attention on other proteins, you'll
find that man is more closely related to a chicken than he is to a
chimpanzee."
This was immediately followed by Dr. Doolittle's response, "Oh bullfrog!
I've heard that gibberish before, I have to tell you." This was the first
recorded use of "Bullfrog" that I am aware of. Then Doolittle indicated a
book full of amino acid sequences from thousands of proteins taken from
many hundreds of species and offered Gish all his worldly belongings, a '63
VW and half a house, if Gish could find just one protein in chickens or
bullfrogs that is more closely related to human proteins than chimpanzee
proteins.
And so the investigation started. After the publication of this story (one of my sources for this page), false creationist claims would be met with catcalls from the audience of "Bullfrog!"
Also on this page is the story of Walter Brown's rattlesnake protein claim. I consider this as a deliberately crafted creationist lie because of how very carefully and exactly the claim needs to be stated in order to remain technically true and how quickly Brown acted to cover it up.
The rattlesnake protein claim made use of Dayhoff's mid-60's comparison of cytochrome c between 47 different species, which did not include chimpanzees. Humans and rhesus monkeys differed by one amino acid. Later comparisons of human and chimpazee cytochrome c showed them to be identical, zero differences.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 233 of 830 (869606)
01-02-2020 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
01-02-2020 2:41 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
quote:
Weird it may be, but the case can be made. I think I made it somewhere here a while back.
No sensible case that takes that actual morphological variety of trilobites into account has been made. Even if we consider the variety that can be seen through simply looking at photographs of fossils without the detailed study of the anatomy that is required.
The scientists who have done the work have classed trilobites as an Order. Reducing that to a species is a big step that requires serious work. You haven’t come close to even starting to make that case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 2:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:03 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 234 of 830 (869610)
01-02-2020 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by PaulK
01-02-2020 2:50 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
The anatomical differences are accidental. The basic morphology is identical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 2:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by DrJones*, posted 01-02-2020 3:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 3:13 PM Faith has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 235 of 830 (869612)
01-02-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
01-02-2020 3:03 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
The anatomical differences are accidental. The basic morphology is identical.
just like humans and chimps

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:07 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 236 of 830 (869614)
01-02-2020 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by DrJones*
01-02-2020 3:04 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
No, dear, the basic morphology is very different. Like the differences between horses and cows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by DrJones*, posted 01-02-2020 3:04 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 237 of 830 (869616)
01-02-2020 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
01-02-2020 3:03 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
quote:
The anatomical differences are accidental. The basic morphology is identical
Which is entirely consistent with trilobites being correctly described as an Order. Ignoring major differences in anatomy by calling them accidental is not even an argument. You could make exactly the same argument for humans and monkeys being the same species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:20 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 238 of 830 (869617)
01-02-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by PaulK
01-02-2020 3:13 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
The morphological similarities are of the sort that would be built into the genome, and the accidental features normal variations of the genetic material. The basic morphology of chimps and humans need entirely different genomes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 3:29 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 239 of 830 (869618)
01-02-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
01-02-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
quote:
The morphological similarities are of the sort that would be built into the genome, and the accidental features normal variations of the genetic material.
You’re just making things up. You have no evidence for this assertion at all.
quote:
The basic morphology of chimps and humans need entirely different genomes.
In fact the human and chimp genomes are very similar. We’ll never know but it’s very likely that trilobite genomes differed far more,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 240 of 830 (869619)
01-02-2020 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by PaulK
01-02-2020 3:29 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
Sorry but your ability to judge the similarities and differences is ...lacking, to put it nicely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 3:29 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by DrJones*, posted 01-02-2020 3:34 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 244 by PaulK, posted 01-02-2020 3:40 PM Faith has replied

  
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