Testing The Christian Apologists

I too report what other authors have said. You dismiss all of my sources as carny hucksters, even ones with actual credentials! It does not surprise me in that you have gone on record criticizing even Paul of Tarsus. How jar of Texas can do that is clear when one sees that jar markets the idea that the Bible is simply human ideas of various god characters. The reason I don't respond to your arguments is that the conclusion you want me to see is that God is unknowable and that we humans are charged with living like Jesus(only better) rather than following Him.

Believe what is actually written is what is actually written Phat.It really is that easy.Understand that the Bible does have contradictions and errors and falsehoods and history and folk tales and lessons and each section, each story reflects the ethos of that particular author.Don't believe me.Don't believe Ringo.Don't believe the Apologists.Instead simply acknowledge that what is written in the stories is what is actually written in the stories and what the author of the story wanted to say.

I want to believe God Himself. OK, quick question. Why didn't you ever tell me to throw the Bible away? You always said to throw God away.Christianity taught me to trust God and accept Him into my heart (and mind) through the character of Jesus.Had i been a student in your Bible Study I would have been taught that the book has contradictions, which I will give you for the moment.If so, how am I going to find how to accept God when the Bible teacher says to throw Him away? Just what are you teaching? I know you teach that Christianity is about what we do. That much isn't in dispute. What is in dispute is a Bible "teacher" who advocates simply going out, studying all of the religions, and doing good to your fellow human. Does that sum it up? And what about that Bible? Keep or Toss?Oh, and what about God? Should we still throw Him away?

You're getting muddled, I'm the one that doesn't believe that your god exists or existed. But as far as the story goes, it is what it says so why not read it. So stone me to death; isn't that what you should do according to your book? So you've got a problem haven't you? Best not to think too much about it eh? I don't need an excuse, the lie is either in the text or it isn't. Why not just read the text?Personally I just think it's all laughable - it's just a folk tale, of course it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny.And, btw, you can't use the book to prove what is said in the book. Don't be silly, I'm just reading your book like I would any other. I love the idea of professional god knowers. Like they know anything anybody else can't know. Like it's a big secret only the few are granted. Come on Phat, this is nonsense.Why not just think for yourself?

The Bible (and I mean all of the different Canons), can be shown to exist and verified, and the content of each can be verified. The Bible can be known. Yes Phat, throw all the God(s) and god(s) away. They are all human creations. All we can know is what can be tested and verified; what was included and excluded from the various Canons, what is written in the stories, what is written in any all all the religious tomes and what people actually do.Those things can be known. Everything else is simply fantasy.Edited by jar, : add missing )Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Yes, we know you believe in a puny God who can only act within strict restraints.

The story needs no marketing. It says what it says. No, not blasphemy. Your own Book might contradict what your apologist idols are telling you but reading the Book as written is not blasphemy by any definition of the word. So Titus disagrees with Genesis. Why do you choose to believe Titus? And why do you choose to believe in a limited god who can't do things? On the contrary, I have said flat out that your quote does contradict another quote (not by "my insistence at all). Wake up and smell the coffee. The Bible does have contradictions. I couldn't care less about descriptions of somebody's belief. If you have an argument, make it. I'm saying that every theologian who refuses to see the contradictions is dishonest. I stand on the Bible. You stand on apologists. There is no "want". I don't care what the Bible says about God any more than I care what Treasure Island says about long John Silver. It says what it says and an honest person has to accept what it says. There is no need to trash that idea. It's an untenable position already. On the contrary, you're the one who is trying to spread lies about the Bible. We're talking about a character in a book here. If there is a god outside the book, that's a separate issue. I accuse Christians of denying the message of the book, not just ignoring it. Who should you believe? The guy on the infomercial who is trying to sell you a product (i.e. the professional who makes his living by selling you stuff)? Or the consumer reports who warn you that the product will burst into flames?

I wouldn't say it is any better. I would say that it is at least as good. My belief is that God is known initially through a spiritual epiphany, which may have at one time happened to you before you quenched the fire through your stronger belief in science and evidence and your observation that Christians around you had nothing special going on that unbelievers did not have.The goat herders had a lot of quiet time to think. Thus, the cultural ideas about God in general likely led to the writing that God lied to A&E. My "religionism" was partly cultural and partly transcendent. The older I get, however, the more that I realize that my transcendent experience was an awakening more than it was a transformation. It is beginning to look as if you and jar are correct in that what I do leads to further evidence of a transformative personality and outlook. I wished that God would have totally changed and transformed me, but evidently He expects some work out of me!
As for our goat herders, they worked a lot! I likely couldn't even handle a day full of what they did. They, like I, encountered certain problems and challenges for which even hard work couldn't overcome, so they, as I, turned to the God of their understanding. I can speculate that they had more challenges and obstacles in life than I do, so perhaps their faith was stronger than mine.

You did say it. In Message 514, I asked, "So you're wiser than the people who wrote the Book?" and in Message 516 you replied, "In some ways yes. I know more about reality than they do." And presumably, you include God as part of reality. And the cultural ideas about God in the past two thousand years have evolved to what you believe. What's the difference?

The transcendent experience. I had one. That much I know.

Yup, that's ALWAYS IT, all the rest is packing.Jesus spoke to you so all the rest is irrelevant detail. In other words it's all about you.

HOW do you know? You can never explain how you can tell the difference between a "transcendent experience" and a bad burrito. Until you can explain it, you don't know any such thing.

A "bad burrito", more commonly known as food poisoning, is a biological reaction to toxic chemicals being accidentally ingested. The feelings can range anywhere from nausea to brief paranoia or even euphoric feelings, which are a temporary response to the toxins, which eventually are fought off and destroyed by the body.Full recovery usually happens in 1-5 days or in rare occasions through professional medical care. What I experienced was initially a bit of detachment and serenity, which can happen after any mind altering experience. It was unique enough that I, a former recreational drug user, could differentiate it from any reaction to any mind altering substance i had ever done. Notably, the altering of my perspective and mental state was felt even more profoundly 24-60 hours later. I literally felt almost as one feels when they fall in love. the concept of God, which had never been internalized, was at that time perceived on a personal familial level. God became forever alive that day. This awareness radiated out from me and many whom I knew at the time commented on how different I was. As the day faded from short term memory, it grew in long term awareness.I actually wanted to go to church---not for the people there so much---I still barely knew them, but because I felt as if God---or something alien and powerful---was actually alive and living inside of me.What more recollection and/or descriptions of my experience do you require?I have since asked others to explain how they knew they had gotten saved.
Many profess belief or membership in the club, but if you ask them where God is at this very moment, you will usually get similar answers: "Everywhere"...or "In Heaven" or even "right here beside me". The main difference that I noted came from those who were warm, loving, on fire for jesus, and hungry for more was that when you asked them where God was right now, they would as a group almost exclaim the same thing: "He is in my heart". Or He is in me. That's a notable difference in common that I have found through informal inquiry. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

No, not at all. If anything, I became much more empathetic of other people. It was never just about me. Perhaps at times I felt as if it was about Jesus, for He had become as real to me as if He were my own Grandfather or treasured family friend. I have noted that now, years and years later (26 years to be exact) I have found that the feeling has faded yet is instantly accessible through prayer and voluntary cheerful good works. jar is right in that instance. Works prove salvation and indwelling, though many do good works who have neither of those attributes.

Of course it's about you - it happened to you. Jesus spoke to YOU. It's a common experience across all religions and it's not confined to religion. All sorts of cults create these experiences. How do you explain Mohammed talking to people? It's got nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity it's a brain state. A delusion. It feels real but of course it isn't.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.