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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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What's the difference between creating evil and creating the possibility of evil? If I give a four-year-old a loaded pistol, it's possible that evil will ensue but it's also possible that it won't. If evil does ensue, who's responsible? Obviously the one who made it possible.
The rest of that quote is just word-salad gibberish."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So in Heaven humans will not be free.
You pays your nickle and you takes your chances. The problem Phat is that what you describe as "Mainstream Christianity" is nothing but an accumulation of contradictions and absurdities.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I never said humans won't still have free will in heaven. Satan certainly did...why wouldn't any other Being? The difference between Adam & WEve is that they were innocent when they chose knowledge. The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I don't know what Satan was thinking, but even he was foreknown to fall.
You pays your nickle and you takes your chances. The problem with logic, reason, and reality is that you keep your nickel, invest in humanity, and still take your chances. I suppose that nobody really *knows* the outcome in an absolute sense. We ar all free to either be religious, attend church, or simply roll up our sleeves and help the neighbor take out her trash and reach things high on the shelf. GOD, if GOD exists watches everything.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, Phat, I believe Christian theology is clear that we will no long have the ability to sin when we are in heaven, we will have lost that kind of free will. I'm not sure what form it will take, maybe just that we'll have so much greater love for God and so much better understand we will just never want to sin, but in any case we will never sin and I for one look forward to that, becauseto my mind it is freedom FROM sin and evil. But unlike Adam and Eve I belive we will have the knowledge of good and evil and memory of the sin and evil done on Earth while we were here.
This is just my own understanding but now I'm going to go look it up.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Because simply creating evil makes God "complete" as jar asserts. I believe that God is good. Not good and evil.
What's the difference between creating evil and creating the possibility of evil?If I give a four-year-old a loaded pistol, it's possible that evil will ensue but it's also possible that it won't. And once humans were given the knowledge of how to make pistols, we made a bunch of them. The Tree of knowledge is a mixed bag. We grew up and made many things. Some good and some bad. Would we have been better off choosing the other tree instead?
If evil does ensue, who's responsible? It depends on how mature and responsible one is. If an adult uses a pistol incorrectly, they cant simply sue Samuel Colt. Or even the yahoo who invented bump stocks. Evil was made possible only to give us a full choice. As a species, we are growing up and learning how to be responsible. The jury is still out as to whether we can do it fully without Jesus needing to come back bodily. The other guy certainly continues to market his agenda. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Another question I have is why God binds Satan for 1000 years and then lets him loose again? Look that one up too.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I didn't ask the question quite right so I'll have to ask it again but I did get this answer which seems to answer my question too, from Sproul's Ligonier Ministries.
...When we are justified, we are justified with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. What that means—if you can begin to take it in—is that when you stand before God you are able to say, I am as righteous before You as Your Son Jesus Christ. Now that can sound very arrogant. But if you then ask, Well how is that? the answer is, Because the only righteousness with which I’m justified is Jesus Christ’s righteousness. That is about our justification and he goes on to say that we will be judged by how we lived our lives here too, apparently mostly in terms of what kind of reward we will get rather than punishment. Those with the best record of good deeds will get a higher reward and those without good deeds I guess will get no reward at all but we won't be banished from heaven. I still want to get a more direct answer to my question but I think the implication of our being clothed in Christ's righteousness is that we will never sin because He never sinned. HOWEVER, we are also told in scripture that He was "tempted even as we are tempted," so it's not as if we will be without the knowledge of sin, we will simply have Christ's power to reject it. Here's a more direct answer to my question: The Bible is clear that it will be impossible for humans to sin in heaven. A close look at Revelation 21 and 22, the New Testament's final chapters, offers several insights that indicate sin will no longer remain in the new heaven in eternity future.
Revelation 21:4 notes the future removal of any pain or problems: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore." This same verse notes the reason there would no longer be death or pain: "for the former things have passed away." The new heaven and new earth will exist without the curse of sin found in this world. The description of the new heaven and heavenly city includes an absence of sin. Revelation 21:27 states, "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." Revelation 22:3 states, "No longer will there be anything accursed." The curse of sin that entered humanity with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3 will be removed. The focus will be God and worship of Him. Revelation 22:3 continues, "but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him." Revelation 22:14-15 contrasts the holy ones in God's presence with the sinners who live outside: "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." These evil ones have no ability to enter into the sinless presence of the Lord in this future eternal state.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. Right so I can carry on sinning in heaven can I?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I just wore myself out trying to get the above post straightened out since I kept getting the codes in the wrong place. I don't understand all those parts of Revelation either but you could google it you know.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is a difference between the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, which of course God has, and Adam and Eve's disobedience which brought about that knowledge in their case. They got the knowleddge but they also got the sin and its suffering.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I never said humans won't still have free will in heaven. Satan certainly did...why wouldn't any other Being? The difference between Adam & WEve is that they were innocent when they chose knowledge. The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I don't know what Satan was thinking, but even he was foreknown to fall. Phat, the kind of freewill described in the Genesis tale is like the kind of freewill that you have with choosing not to breathe. Technically you have the choice to inhale or hold your breath, do you not? Technicalities aside, do you really have choice in such an instance? This is the kind of "freewill" that we're up against -- its a sham; an illusion of choice. Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story. Same with the Pharaoh. If you don't believe me, read the scriptures for yourselves. The bible is very clear in stating that God deliberately and intentionally hardened the Pharaoh's heart with the express purpose of denying him will. How about the killing of every firstborn male child? Did they have a choice or were they dealt a shit hand for having been born: 1. First2. Male And lets use you as an example. Some people are dealt shit hands in life, would you agree? I don't have this compulsion to gamble as you have shared that you have wrestled with. You and I both have the choice not to gamble. The difference is that I don't give it any thought because it is not a temptation of mine. I know that statistically speaking the House always wins, so why throw money away in the hopes that I might get a tiny bit more? Not worth the risk to me. But your choice to abstain from the compulsion is a lot harder than mine. Now, do you agree that we both have the exact same choice to either say yes or no to the vice? Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And see the post right below your post.
Phat, either Heaven will have sin as well as not sinning or the folk in heaven will have no freedom of choice. Sorry but what you market as "Mainstream Christianity" is simply silly.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I will go with the idea that the story is metaphorical. It is an explanation of why people die. Whether we initially could have been eternal is a moot point, as we never attained that level. The execution mentioned is the actual action (disobedience) that caused the sentence(death) to become real. We executed ourselves in effect (and metaphorically). This whole idea of the knowledge of right and wrong being a great gift assumes that more value should be placed on learning than on obedience. In today's world, with no physical God present, learning is indeed preferable to obedience. The 60's bumper sticker, Question Authority comes to mind. jar and ringo take it a step farther and question God at every turn. Perhaps a case can hypothetically be made that the god characters in the book are human inventions, but this does not diminish the possibility of a perfect, completely knowledgeable Creator of all seen and unseen existing...long before any humans appeared or any books were written. All throughout human history we have sought to understand God and to connect with an actual living and active One rather than some statue or temple or character in a book. Thus, on the one hand, it is a good exercise in human reasoning to interact with god characters which we ourselves describe. I do it all the time. At the same time, however, I believe in an actual GOD knowable through the character of Jesus Christ and not simply limited to the scrolls from one 66 part book.
When I hypothesize about the actual character of this Deity whom I believe in, I am unafraid to question myself, but my capacity to question the Deity is limited to prayer and reverence. I don't insult such a belief by dragging the character through the mud. If one believes that God is in charge, living and active and that He has allowed an adversary to also exist in this realm and test humans, then one uses the books to fit that scenario. (and one understands the book through being born again) If one is a skeptic, atheist, or secular critic interested only in human nature and literary prose, one can more easily explain away the god character and build their faith in human wisdom, reasoning, and habit. This is in large part why we often disagree and why some of you think that apologists are dishonest. I will concede, however, that dishonesty itself is a human trait. I chalk it up to the allowance of free will and sin, but others can describe it through biological evolution.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Agreed. Again, the fact that there was a War in Heaven would seem to prove that point. And there are many stories and many explanations given by human reasoning and literature. I can speculate and make up scenarios all day. For example, Revelation 20:1-12. Phat, either Heaven will have sin as well as not sinning or the folk in heaven will have no freedom of choice.1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. People may ask what this story is supposed to teach. I see it as God using Satan as a tool to tempt(temper) humanity in order to help sift the wheat from the chaff. In Lesson One we were given the knowledge of good and evil, while we were innocent. Whoever passes that test gets a thousand-year free pass to learn lesson 2. Then, Satan is released to be allowed to tempt the Saints (by that time) again, similar to how he was allowed to sway 1/3 of the angels to join him. We become the decisions we make. You have a point at teaching responsibility vs get-out-of-hell-free theology. Personally, I think both are needed. We are judged by what we do, but we are forgiven based on what we confess. 4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. The Defeat of Satan 7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Judgment Before the Great White Throne 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NJ writes: Yes, they were foreknown. Evil already existed. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart by withdrawing His grace. Pharoah willfully chose to be stubborn due to pride, or greed, or some other aspect of evil that already existed. Evil exists as a tempering agent. It strengthens those who resist it, much as lifting weights allows muscles to strengthen through resisting the weight. Judas was foreknown, but technically had a choice. God would have simply then needed another Judas to complete the plan. If Henry Ford had never invented the Model A, someone else would have eventually.
Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story. Same with the Pharaoh.Some people are dealt shit hands in life, would you agree? We all are given different temptations and weaknesses. Perhaps so we have the opportunity to learn from the trials of others. This life is tough. Its not some paradise nor would it ever be one even if God did not exist and humans were building the best world they possibly could. The issue I am defending is the idea that God if God exists, has a definite plan which tests different people differently. If they have a problem being denied true free will, perhaps they need to learn the lesson that satan learned. One cannot freely choose a world without God if God exists. They will face the music one way or another.
Now, do you agree that we both have the exact same choice to either say yes or no to the vice? No two people have the exact same set of challenges nor opportunities. It appears that the way this is all set up, life is not fair. The issue is not whether we have full free will. The issue is what we do with the choices we are given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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