Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

Nope, not at all.We have plenty of empirical, verifiable evidence for the existence of chemical reactions and chemical reactions doing things.We have absolutely no, zilch, zero, nada empirical, verifiable evidence for the existence of Spooks or for Spooks doing anything.That's a completely objective observation.

I don't think heaven is our final destination. I think it is probably to be the seat of Judgment, but the New Jerusalem comes down to Earth and that is to be the home of believers.But whatever our final destination, it will be different from the uniform goodness of Eden. I have to guess since it isn't described, but what I guess is that we will know from our former experience what evil is, we will remember the sufferings of this earthly life, as well as evil in the sense of the horrible things people do to each other. There are some things we may forget, the Bible seems to say that somewhere, but in general I'd guess all that won't leave our memory. It will no longer exist in reality but if we remember it that should give us a heightened appreciation of goodness. I have no idea what you mean by "correct experimental outcome."Otherwie I thought I answered this, that evil is necessary to an appreciation of the good. And it will also lead to a much higher good in the end. That's my own answer anyway.Suffering is necessary in the fallen world where God's creatures have put themselves in opposition to Him. The opposition itself is like a rent in the fabric of Creation. In other words we are sinners and suffering is the result of our disobedience of God. Nobody escapes this. Nobody is in some special category as you seem to suggesting about "those people" you say "gave him the correct experimental outcome" which makes zero sense to me and doesn't fit any biblical category I know of. We're all fallen, we all suffer as a result.There are degrees of suffering, presumably due to sins we inherit, or the severity of our own sins. I think the Hindu/Buddhist concept of karma is a very interesting attempt to dewscribe these experiences of fallenness and its degrees. the Buddha's whole focus was on suffering and how to do away with it, which involved ceasing to create bad karma which is roughly equivalent to the consequences of sin in the Christian worldview. I'd assume again that it's due to degrees of sin but I'm not sure I know what you have in mind so please be more specific.

This is really fascinating. None of you can understand the question being asked, you're all defaulting to what is and making excuses for the way things are.I'm asking why any of this is necessary at all.Pretend the universe, earth and us didn't exist. Why would your particular god make it at all? and then having decided he needs something why did he make it the way we find it?All this suffering and death just to populate another place that is full of perfect people that live happily ever after forever. Why not build that place and not this? Why run the cruel experiment?

This is indeed funny. You seem to know that our particular God is cruel. et you said you are not referring to the book. How then do you know God is cruel? We certainly don't. And we can't just give you answers on what His opinion of your question is. I can pray that He reveals something to me, but I cant make up an answer on His behalf.

You think something that tortures and kills trillions of people isn't cruel? How does that work?But cruel or otherwise, why not try to answer the bloody question?

OK so I don't get what you are asking. Apparently I can't get it. My answer is that anything other than what He did is impossible, what we have is what He had to do for the best possible outcome. I still think that what you want, eliminating all evil and suffering, would be static and boring. We had to fall, we had to experience evil and suffering. It had to be the way it is. So to you this is just making excuses for the way things are. OK, maybe so. There isw no other possibility that I can see. That "other place" you are talking about: why didn't He build that and not this you ask. Because it's impossible to thave that without this. That's my answer.

If this is the best he can do, he's no god.Also, the best he can do according to you is heaven. So why not just make heaven? Well that's heaven apparently? Please explain why. I think even you know that that is not an answer.

Yes, there are conflicts between survival of the species and survival of the individual. There is no simple answer to "why" a soldier leans a certain way at a certain time. "God" certainly doesn't answer the question. The question doesn't make any more sense than, "Why does gravity occur at all?" Gravity is. Evolution is. It's interesting to know how they work but "why" the exist is empty philosophy. You're jumping into the middle of a string of processes. You're congratulating yourself for accepting evolution but you're rejecting the chemical processes that cause evolution.

That's because you redefine the word cruel: If God does it, it isn't cruel. Nobody is asking you for God's opinion on anything. You're being asked what you think. And apparently your apologist idols haven't made up a canned answer for you.

What is heaven supposed to be like? Are you saying that you would prefer Hell because it has evil and suffering since you would be bored in Heaven because nothing bad happens? So is it impossible for God to build Heaven?Edit: What Tangle said. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

I'm just trying to explain why God made it so that suffering has to happen, why things are the way they are. I think I'm in the ballpark at least. But yes there is a comparison to be made between heaven and Eden that seems to suggest we could have been happy in Eden as of coruse everyone is in heaven. But maybe this explains it: Adam and Eve started out without the knowledge of good and evil that they would get only by disobedience of God. But God says that would make them like "us, knowing good and evil" so in heaven they DO know of good and evil. I'm not entirely sure what this means, but it suggests that heaven is different in this important way from Eden. Perhaps I just can't understand it, it's beyond me. Much of biblical truth does have to be taken on faith because we can't comprehend it.

Well at least you're making a start.Now, why does god need these three places, Eden, Earth and Heaven? Eden was an experiment that went wrong pretty much immediately but why did god need to make paradise when he already had heaven?

So apparently Tangle keeps bugging me to answer the bloody question that he asks, namely "why does God appear evil in scripture, and why did God have to do things the way that He did? The argument is that it appears to be an evil act in creating people and then trashing them and damning them simply to hone a select and exclusive subgroup who then goes on to populate Heaven and achieve greater glory.First of all, I dont think that my God would do such a thing, and am taking this as an opportunity to once again study the oldest book in the Bible, the story of Job. Note that Job was of good character, a wealthy man, and most notably one who feared God. Thus he most definitely wouldn't be making fun of God or second-guessing God or challenging God on a normal basis. Nor would he do as many do these days and simply ignore God. He accepted that the Creator of all seen and unseen was exactly that--not some character of literature, a plot device, or a mere tale of the mythos. This man actually talked with God through prayer on a daily basis. At least that's what I get out of this story. Wyhat I get is that his sons were not quite as pious as he was. Maybe it was that they were simply younger and more full of life than of god. What does anyone else think? I see a father who not only prays for himself but for his family---letting them do their own thing essentially.
1:6-1:13 has satan introduced. God gives Satan the power to mess with Job. Often, when critics accuse god of causing evil, I remind them that satan is in play as well, and in fact causes nothing but evil...either through destruction or enticement. Of course, critics could still blame God for allowing satan to exist, but that's another argument. It does seem to get God off the hook directly for causing or allowing evil, but not practically. Why would God allow satan to be part of a cruel experiment fostered on humanity---those whom God so loved? (John 3:16)So then Job loses his property and his children. Who wouldn't be mad at that? One could simply say that it was fate and that life was unfair, but then whom could one blame for their misfortune? Fate is impersonal and nonliving. This particular man was a man who personified good and evil. Yet he apparently knew enough that to curse would bring the power of evil stronger. I suppose unbelievers would simply shrug and say "hey, sh*t happens. Life is unfair."I recently had eye surgery and now am blind in one eye. I have to see the doctor again on Tuesday. I hope that it is just a cateract, but if it indeed does mean that I am blind, I certainly wont just shrug and say that life is unfair. I will be angry and focused. If anyone of you skeptics had the same thing happen to you, what would be the focus of your anger?Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Eden is synonymous with Earth, why are you separating them? God made the planet and then established His garden in Eden where He placed our first parents. Nobody is sure where Eden was located though probably somewhere in the Middle East. So Noah probably built his ark there as well but there is no way of knowing for sure. Human ity would have covered the whole world by then, which would have been the one continent known by science as Pangaea. The ark certainly landed somewhere in that area in any case, Ararat which has two possible locations but bother are in that general area. Then Noah's descendants spread out from there and repopulated the Earth. Yes it contradicts not only scientific timing but the idea that humanity originated in Africa. I know you didn't need this much information but oh well.Where are you getting this idea that "Eden was an experiment that went wrong?" That isn't so, God knows what He is doing even if we can't figure it out. He made humanity ultimately to bring down the satanic rebellion that had preceded our Creation possibly by thousands of years though the timing isn't given. We just know it happened before God created us. This is no experiment, we aren't in a position to understand it beyond some basics, but it has a definite purpose and a derfinite outcome in God's eyes. yes the war between good and evil and the eventual vanquishing of the devil and his hordes. "Don't you know that we will judge angels?" says Paul somewhere. Fallen angels of course.As I understand it God made Paradise as a holding place for those who die in faith in Christ, it's not our final destination but where we await the Judgement while history is playing out on Earth. Hades is the Greek version of this idea for instance, but as I understand it Hades has divisions for good people and the wicked and various degrees of those. Not sure of that but heard it somewhere. I don't think Paradise has these divisions. The biblical story of Lazarus who goes to "the bosom of Abraham" while the man who tormented him during his lifetime is suffering in Hell may show that there are at least two different places for humanity to go before the Judgment. At the Judgment Hell is to be thrown into the lake of fire. Anyway Heaven is God's home and humanity has no place there until our final redemption and resurrection. So heaven is only for the ultimately redeemed and as I wrote previously it probably isn't going to be the final home of the redeemed anyway which will be the New Jerusalem described in Revelation.

I'm not an atheist. I may not be a Christian (or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and so forth), but I am definitely not an atheist.You continue on to say a great deal about evolution, but if there's some connection between Tangle's question and evolution then I don't see it.Tangle seems to be asking a different question now, but I'm still interested in the answer to the question he was asking when I joined the discussion. Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all?--Percy