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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: All that they market is that One must accept God in communion. Initially, we accepted the knowledge of good and evil. That led to us determining for ourselves what good was and what evil was. We became as gods, knowing both. The apologists try and sell the belief that we actually know neither ultimate good nor ultimate evil and are incapable of learning. They market the solution. What seems to bug you is the idea that we get saved rather than having to figure it out for ourselves. But I have never claimed that anybody, anybody at all, gets a free pass. It is the Apologists and Conmen who market the idea that there is a free pass. What bugs me about your position as I understand it is that folks simply need to help each other to the best of our ability and that no other change in attitude, belief, or behavior is necessary. God will simply let everyone into the party who at least tried to avoid evil (as they understood it) seek to do good(as they understood it) and love all people the best that we can in an unselfish manner. You put the whole responsibility of the transformation on us. Romans 12:2 clearly says not to conform, be transformed rather than trying to do your best in order to transform yourself through works. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The apologists try and sell the belief that we actually know neither ultimate good nor ultimate evil and are incapable of learning. They market the solution. No one but the conmen even claim that there is some ultimate good or ultimate evil. The market both the problem as well as the alleged solution but there is zero evidence that the product they market works or even exists.
Phat writes: You put the whole responsibility of the transformation on us. Yes, that is correct. Stop taking pieces parts out of Romans. Read the whole letter. No one but you can change you.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: Given a limited degree of free will and responsibility, the humans are allowed to freely develop and grow as a species. Reason? To see if one can evolve into a creature worthy of Heaven. 'To see?' He doesn't know? Ok so he's not the god you believe in then? So this god that is no longer all-knowing, creates an experiment that tortures and destroys 100% of his creation - trillions of creatures - just to see if some of them can get through it. He's a fucking psycopath.
Problem: If God created all that is seen and unseen, why did God create evil? Either directly or non-directly? Because he's the evil.
If God had simply made a universe full of good things, events, and situations, how would the human-animal be challenged to grow? Why did god need to create a universe at all??? Why do people need to grow or fail to grow for the entertainment of your god? It's imbecilic. If god wants company to populate his heaven he can fill it with 'fully grown' people. Why torture trillion? Why?
Do you see where I am going with this thought experiment, Tangle? Yeh, right back up your own fundament.
Its quite evident to me that if only good and easy things happened to me in my life, I might not evolve freely chosen decisions regarding my behavior. A starving man takes food far more seriously than a content one. The stuff that is self-evident to you is plainly ridiculous. It makes no sense at all. The whole thing is totally redundant, there's can be no reason why a loving god tortures and kills his creation in order to let a few of them into a life that he could have given them from the start. It's patently crazy.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
No, that's what the evidence shows. The mind can be altered by chemicals, therefore it is physical - and there is certainly no evidence of anything spooky altering the mind.
ringo writes:
That is your belief. Everything is physicality, including the mind. GDR writes:
So you have to go back before there was any evidence to ignore the evidence.
I agree with Plato that the brain is an instrument of the mind. GDR writes:
Sure, it's possible to make a conscious choice to do the wrong thing. That's a weak plank to build your position on.
ringo writes:
They kinda do because over history some have chosen not to. Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they? GDR writes:
A remember you objecting to me equating your God with the Tooth Fairy. You can object all you like but facts is facts. I'm not going to cover them up in the name of civility. Using the term spook isn't really the way to facilitate a civil discussion."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You've never been able to explain why He wouldn't. And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians. It seems pretty obvious that He is letting both you and me "be the way we are now". I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
We stole the knowledge of good and evil, against God's will. Compare with Prometheus stealing fire from the gods. A lot of religions have humans in contention with the gods - i.e growing up. Initially, we accepted the knowledge of good and evil."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If they would read the Bible they might even come across the origin of the name "Israel", AkA Jacob. It's significant but another thing modern Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity & the CCoI does not teach.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Once again, you focus on the suffering and I can hardly deny that it exists. However there is also considerable joy in this world. Think of the joy a parent has when he/she first holds their new born. They aren't lamenting the fact that they have brought a new life into this miserable world. But that's just a point of detail. The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary. As to the point of it all I can only surmise, but I would suggest that God wanted to bring about a society of beings that would be able to form a new society where the love of others is the norm.
Tangle writes: Pf course it knows that it exists and it can also theorize about how it evolved but that doesn't address the issue of whether it is a part of a plan from intelligence or from mindlessness.
Science knows what empathy is. It's not some great mystery. Tangle writes: It can be if that was the only way to ultimately bring about a world where those things don't exist.
And those two sentences contradict each other. A god that creates a world where cancer, mental illness and total death is NOT a loving god. Tangle writes: I don't know if He created heaven or not. I simply see it as God's universe/dimension. That's obviously wrong. If he created Heaven, he had no need to create the evil experiment also. One other thought on that. I realize that the Bible talks about God creating all things. However, I also don't have a problem with acknowledging that God is responsible for life but not necessarily the universe. I do hold the view that our universe is an (quoting someone but can't remember who), "emergent property of a greater reality" which I think is fairly consistent with much of the theorizing of modern physics. If this is true then it could be that God brought life to this 4 dimensional part of the total reality. The decay and entropy that we experience my just be an inherent aspect of this universe. An absolute answer is well beyond my pay grade so I think that is about the best I can do. May Brexit end happily.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: The working of the brain can be altered by chemicals but that doesn't require an altering of the mind.
No, that's what the evidence shows. The mind can be altered by chemicals, therefore it is physical - and there is certainly no evidence of anything spooky altering the mind.ringo writes: The evidence you offer though is theoretical and you choose the theory that is consistent with your desired outcome. Even is science can show how it originates from the brain then it again has simply shown how it evolved in the same way that evolution explains as best it can how we evolved physically. So you have to go back before there was any evidence to ignore the evidence. It still wouldn't address the iissue of why it exists at all and whthere it now its root cause is from intelligence or mindlessness.Here is an interesting article from a psychological POV. Does Consciousness Exist Outside of the Brain? ringo writes: It seems to me that if you have to resort to ridicule to make your point, then maybe your point isn't very strong. A remember you objecting to me equating your God with the Tooth Fairy. You can object all you like but facts is facts. I'm not going to cover them up in the name of civility.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Once again, you focus on the suffering and I can hardly deny that it exists. However there is also considerable joy in this world. Think of the joy a parent has when he/she first holds their new born. They aren't lamenting the fact that they have brought a new life into this miserable world I wonder why you can't see that this is totally irrelevant?
but that doesn't address the issue of whether it is a part of a plan from intelligence or from mindlessness. That's because it's also irrelevant. It's empathy and it's just another evolved trait. We don't put anger down to the devil or opposable thumbs down to the holy ghost either. But take this elsewhere, it's got no place here.
It can be if that was the only way to ultimately bring about a world where those things don't exist. Please, please, ask yourself why god needs to run a cruel test that only a few can pass in order to get them into a place he could put them directly into without needing to torture and kill everything he's created. WHY DO IT AT ALL?
One other thought on that. I realize that the Bible talks about God creating all things. However, I also don't have a problem with acknowledging that God is responsible for life but not necessarily the universe. Sheesh, anything will do. I know you don't have any problem at all simply making stuff up so that whatever you need to believe isn't compromised. Faith does it too but at least her rubbish is biblical.
I do hold the view that our universe is an (quoting someone but can't remember who), "emergent property of a greater reality" which I think is fairly consistent with much of the theorizing of modern physics. If this is true then it could be that God brought life to this 4 dimensional part of the total reality. The decay and entropy that we experience my just be an inherent aspect of this universe. All you actually know about your belief is written in your bible - none of this stuff has anything to do with it.
An absolute answer is well beyond my pay grade so I think that is about the best I can do. And your favourite 'still small voice' is still unanswered. You'll now go away and forget about it and pretend that it doesn't matter that your god has removed his voice from millions of people.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The debate/discussion continues...
Phat writes:
I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.ringo writes:
CS Lewis touches on this change in humanity briefly in his book, Mere Christianity , specifically in the section 11: The New Men.
You've never been able to explain why He wouldn't. And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians. It seems pretty obvious that He is letting both you and me "be the way we are now".quote: Lewis explains the transformation better than I could.
ringo writes: The difference is subtle. We are works in progress. Some things became clear from Day One, while other things take time to let go of. And I might add that unlike jars assertion, Christians are not simply Christians because they say they are. They are Christians because Christ came into them and they died to self. It is a slow process, for we don't all die at once. Many parts of our personality are hard to let go of.[/qs] God does not force us to change. Lewis also explains this. And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians.Mere Christianity writes: Thus, while jar tells us to throw God away and throw Christ away, Lewis exhorts us to throw Self away. Your real, new self (which is Christ's and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him. Yes, ringo---God does not simply accept us as we are in current attitude. No drunks allowed at this gathering. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: You expect God to make conditions pleasant for you. He expects you to be transformed enough to make conditions pleasant for others. And there is no evidence that He is responsible for our human suffering. You just have taken the position that if God is all-powerful, we need not suffer. Did it ever occur to you that suffering is a part of the plan? Please, please, ask yourself why god needs to run a cruel test that only a few can pass in order to get them into a place he could put them directly into without needing to torture and kill everything he's created.Why? Because if you premake someone's environment and character for them, they become like zombies. The purpose is for us to accomplish much despite suffering. The point is that just as muscles grow larger after being broken down and torn, so do humans. And I might add that you have no clue as to God's actual character until you are in communion. You claim that some are punished for not being able to hear the still small voice...or the indwelling presence. Might I suggest that it is your own mind's habit of rejecting non- evidenced events that sets a block on this process initially? But I don't believe He will punish you simply for being slow to comprehend unevidenced spirituality. The God I believe in is not simply limited to descriptions in the book. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes:
I'm an atheist Phat, remember? God doesn't exist, I expect nothing of him. I'm trying - and failing - to get you to think beyond your indoctrination.
You expect God to make conditions pleasant for you. And there is no evidence that He is responsible for our human suffering. He made it, he's responsible. Who else?
You just have taken the position that if God is all-powerful, we need not suffer. Did it ever occur to you that suffering is a part of the plan? Of course it occurs to me, that's why I say that the god you've conjured up is a fucking psychopath.
Because if you premake someone's environment and character for them, they become like zombies. He has created at least two zombie worlds, the Garden of Eden and Heaven. He apparently thought that they they were a good idea.
The purpose is for us to accomplish much despite suffering. The point is that just as muscles grow larger after being broken down and torn, so do humans. That's just crap.
And I might add that you have no clue as to God's actual character until you are in communion. I know a murdering, evil psychopath when I see one. By his deeds you will know him.
You claim that some are punished for not being able to hear the still small voice...or the indwelling presence. That's not a claim, it's a fact and you haven't explained it away yet - even to yourself.
Might I suggest that it is your own mind's habit of rejecting non- evidenced events that sets a block on this process initially? But I don't believe He will punish you simply for being slow to comprehend unevidenced spirituality. The God I believe in is not simply limited to descriptions in the book. Quit telling us what you believe, it's a waste of electrons. Please answer the questions. Why does your god need to torture and kill trillions of people in order to put a few people into heaven? Why not just put them straight into heaven?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tngle,to GDR writes: Did he, though?
You'll now go away and forget about it and pretend that it doesn't matter that your god has removed his voice from millions of people.Tangle writes: Thus you would not expect a still small voice even if one existed. Yet you charge Him hypothetically denying the voice to you. Get your argument straight. Either He doesn't exist--in which case, there is no still small voice...or you refuse to hear such a voice because you are an atheist. You can't dictate that He must force It upon you. That's not a fair argument. You've been reading too much Richard Dawkins. You believe that crap that he taught about the cruel God. You know what I am talking about. I'm an atheist Phat, remember? God doesn't exist, I expect nothing of him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Did he, though? According to you and GDR, yes.
Thus you would not expect a still small voice even if one existed. This has got nothing to do with me! I'm playing your arguments back to you and showing you why they're dumb.
Yet you charge Him hypothetically denying the voice to you. Get your argument straight. Either He doesn't exist--in which case, there is no still small voice...or you refuse to hear such a voice because you are an atheist. You can't dictate that He must force It upon you. That's not a fair argument. Get a grip Phat, I'm trying to show that your god - not mine - can't be a loving god if he tortures and kills his creation and that he doesn't need this experiment at all. you're avoiding answering the questions. Again. Why does god remove the conscience from the psychopath?
You've been reading too much Richard Dawkins. You believe that crap that he taught about the cruel God. You know what I am talking about. I haven't read Dawkins for years, stop spinning - answer the question, why is your god so cruel.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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