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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 1086 (867032)
11-19-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
11-19-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Examining The Apologists
Phat writes:
So in other words, the Bible *can* be contradicted or corrected based on an evidenced fact.
Of course. The Bible (the canon that we're used to, anyway) is 66 books. Of course they're not 100% consistent, any more than Treasure island and Gone With the Wind and The Catcher in the Rye are 100% consistent with each other.
Phat writes:
An apologist can't explain what the Bible means yet some yahoo who writes a book claiming Jesus is a myth can?
Exactly. Any yahoo can point out where the apologists are clearly lying. Belief is entirely irrelevant.
Phat writes:
Not on my watch.
On every one of your watches.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 11-19-2019 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8493
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 302 of 1086 (867033)
11-19-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
11-19-2019 11:08 AM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
All you atheists plus some of those misguided wannabe "Christians" really need to do is give just a teensy weensy bit of benefit of the doubt to two thousand years of thousands of biblical exegetes and millions of Bible-reading believers, just a teensy weensy bit of sheer logic or even . just plain humanity... to understand that your first kneejerk take on the Bible has to be wrong and those thousands of years of SERIOUS CHRISTIANS aren't that stupid and aren't liars trying to hold the masses captive.
No. No we don't.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 1086 (867038)
11-19-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 11:48 AM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
True, you don't if you don't mind being stupid and illogical and without a shred of grace toward the rest of the human race..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 11:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 1:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 304 of 1086 (867041)
11-19-2019 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by ringo
11-19-2019 11:43 AM


the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
The amazing thing about the Bible is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God. This could not happen simply with indifividual prophets in different times and cultural contexts writing from their own separate messages from God. This is major evidence for the supernatural inspiration of scripture,and a major caveat against picking and choosing from among its writings. You may see this if you read it as it is supposed to be read, each part building on each other part. That will mean giving up some of your first takes on a reading to see how it fits into the grand design. Perhaps only a believer can actually do this.
===================
By the way, ringo. I see on the Discussion thread that you claim I'm disobeying the rules and never stopped disobeying them. I can't post on that thread but I want to answer you. Ever since I said I was going to try to be good I've done my very best to do just that and thought I was succeeding. Very recently I fell off the wagon and called someone an idiot. Maybe other times I've lost track of. But overall for many months now I've made an honest effort to avoid insulting anyone. So Percy's censorship has not been making any sense to me at all. It's hard to know since all I see is the censored words and don't know where he found them offensive. I think he's punishing me for my politi8cal views and not for insulting people, and AZP seems to be saying he agrees with me about that. Anyway, if you really believe what you say about me, please give examples of what you mean ---preferably on the Discussion Problems thread.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2019 1:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 308 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 2:18 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 310 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 9:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:09 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 305 of 1086 (867042)
11-19-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
11-19-2019 12:44 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
quote:
The amazing thing about the Bible is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God
It would be if it was true, but it isn’t. The really amazing thing is the way believers twist the Bible to fit their doctrines.
quote:
This could not happen simply with indifividual prophets in different times and cultural contexts writing from their own separate messages from God
Then it is hardly surprising that - despite the selective process that assembled the canon - it didn’t happen
quote:
This is major evidence for the supernatural inspiration of scripture,and a major caveat against picking and choosing from among its writings.
Tell that to Martin Luther.
quote:
You may see this if you read it as it is supposed to be read, each part building on each other part. That will mean giving up some of your first takes on a reading to see how it fits into the grand design.
Try reading it honestly instead of trying to force it into the mould of dogma. Or perhaps your kind of believer can’t do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 8:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8493
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 306 of 1086 (867044)
11-19-2019 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
11-19-2019 12:06 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
True, you don't if you don't mind being stupid and illogical and without a shred of grace toward the rest of the human race..
I'm allowed to be stupid and illogical. It is my right just as you are one of its greatest practitioner.
But as for grace toward the rest of the human race you christians destroyed that millennia ago when you abandoned the teachings of your prophet.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 1:52 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 1086 (867045)
11-19-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 1:38 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
But as for grace toward the rest of the human race you christians destroyed that millennia ago when you abandoned the teachings of your prophet.
Which prophet? We've got lots of them. Oh, I guess you mean Jesus? A prophet and much more. But OK, you lllke his teachings?
If your right hand offend you, cut it off; if your right eye offend you, cut it out?" Like that one? There are more I could mention but I have to leave soon.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 1:38 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8493
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 308 of 1086 (867047)
11-19-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
11-19-2019 12:44 PM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
I think he's punishing me for my political views and not for insulting people, and AZP seems to be saying he agrees with me about that.
Not quite right. I'm not so sure this is political on Percy's part. It seems it's a bit history and intransigence on both your parts.
For all that intellect you can be intractably crazy stubborn. Percy is patient in trying to control you but I think he has let your history cause an overreaction.
But then psychology is not my strong suit. I seem to have this emotional aversion to asterisks.
This is not the right thread. I stop. Please stop.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 1086 (867060)
11-19-2019 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by PaulK
11-19-2019 1:10 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
The amazing thing about the Bible is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God
It would be if it was true, but it isn’t. The really amazing thing is the way believers twist the Bible to fit their doctrines.
That makes zero sense. What's amazing to me is how unbelievers insist on turning whatever the tradition says backwards like this. Where are we going to get the doctrines you say we twist the Bible to fit? Millennia of Biblical scholars derived the doctrines from the Bible itself. Unless you are talking about the RCC and they had a lot of pagan stuff to cram into the Bible. Though even they had their honest Biblical scholars so that they just ended up with a mishmash of biblical and pagan thought. Anyway we twist no scripture, scripture dictates its own interpretation to honest exegetes. The consistency is there to be discovered by honest students, it's not invented.
Yes Luther struggled with some parts of the Bible though he was brilliant with most of it and gave us most of what I'm talking about here. No biblical scholar is perfect, it takes all of them together to assemble the whole truth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2019 1:10 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 11-19-2019 11:54 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 312 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2019 12:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 310 of 1086 (867067)
11-19-2019 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
11-19-2019 12:44 PM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
The amazing thing about the ***** is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God.
They really don't though. You don't have to go pat Genesis 1 and 2 to find major disagreements.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 1086 (867080)
11-19-2019 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
11-19-2019 8:19 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
Anyway we twist no scripture, scripture dictates its own interpretation to honest exegetes. The consistency is there to be discovered by honest students, it's not invented.
We will never convince them because they think that spiritual discernment is invented. They critically evaluate the Bible as if it is an ordinary book. The only thing that *might* convince them is signs and wonders which can be objectively verified, and they may see those in their lifetimes, but I'm sure there will be an alternate explanation. Satan is very clever on planet earth and is the pied piper of intellectuals. Kool-aid is being drunk, but it is not we who are consuming it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 8:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by jar, posted 11-20-2019 8:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 316 by ringo, posted 11-20-2019 2:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 317 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2019 2:35 PM Phat has replied
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 11-20-2019 4:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 312 of 1086 (867081)
11-20-2019 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
11-19-2019 8:19 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
quote:
That makes zero sense
Christianity doesn’t make sense. And Biblical Inerrancy makes even less sense (especially when it seems to really propose an errant a Bible that humans can correct - while pretending not to).
quote:
What's amazing to me is how unbelievers insist on turning whatever the tradition says backwards like this.
If tradition is obviously false - and it often is - why would it be surprising that unbelievers - or even believers disagree with it. By the way that’s a hardline Catholic position. Protestantism was founded on not trusting traditions.
quote:
Millennia of Biblical scholars derived the doctrines from the Bible itself. Unless you are talking about the RCC and they had a lot of pagan stuff to cram into the Bible
Biblical Inerrancy is, of course, a Catholic doctrine. And not one that is found in the Bible. Are you calling it pagan stuff then ? If not where did it come from ?
quote:
Anyway we twist no scripture, scripture dictates its own interpretation to honest exegetes.
I guess that Biblical Inerrantists can’t be honest exegete then. I’m glad you agree.
quote:
The consistency is there to be discovered by honest students, it's not invented.
Of course it is invented. Matthew and Luke can’t even agree on where the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus were seen.
quote:
Yes Luther struggled with some parts of the Bible though he was brilliant with most of it and gave us most of what I'm talking about here. No biblical scholar is perfect, it takes all of them together to assemble the whole truth.
And yet you regularly attack Biblical scholars for daring to disagree with your belief, and try to discredit them with smears. You’re no friend of scholarship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 8:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 313 of 1086 (867084)
11-20-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
11-19-2019 11:54 PM


There is no such thing as "The Bible"
Phat writes:
We will never convince them because they think that spiritual discernment is invented.
ALL of the evidence shows that Spiritual Discernment is invented to make the evidence fit the Dogma.
That is not even questionable.
The Protestant Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Roman Catholic Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Ethiopian Short Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Ethiopian Long Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Judaism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Roman Catholicism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Protestantism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Sunni Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Shia Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Buddhism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Shintoism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Hinduism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Greek & Roman Pantheon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Norse Pantheon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Taoism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
ALL of the evidence shows that Spiritual Discernment is very simply a self serving human creation.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 11-19-2019 11:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:02 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 1086 (867086)
11-20-2019 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by jar
11-20-2019 8:56 AM


Re: There is no such thing as "The Bible"
Not all of it. Eyewitness testimony counts in some investigations

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by jar, posted 11-20-2019 8:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 11-20-2019 9:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 315 of 1086 (867087)
11-20-2019 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
11-20-2019 9:02 AM


On the relevance of eye witness testimony
Phat writes:
Not all of it. Eyewitness testimony counts in some investigations
And in each of the instances mentioned above there is eye witness testimony. Even Joseph Smith provides eye witness testimony. In fact there were eight eye witnesses to the Golden Plates; Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Harrison Smith.
It seems Eyewitness testimony counts in some investigations if it supports the conclusion the investigator wants.
Edited by jar, : fix sub title
Edited by jar, : applin spallin in th supozed fix

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
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