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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 256 of 1086 (866896)
11-17-2019 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:56 AM


Re: Ravi owns Sam Harris
quote:
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".
Ravi set him straight.
It looks like you were fooled by Zacharias’ tone of superiority. However, behind the bluster, he concedes pretty much everything.
He admits that the virgin birth is part of a larger prophecy taken out of it’s context. He alleges that is a legitimate reading, but if it is - and if it can be done in hindsight as is the case here then I think he needs more support for the claim that it is legitimate in this case. But he provides little support for the claim that it is a legitimate reading in any case. But without some very strict rules all it does is make prophecy even more malleable - and therefore less impressive.
In the specific case he admits that almah does not mean virgin. Now I will grant that if Isaiah wanted the same phrase to refer to both births he could not specifically claim that the mother was a virgin. But that still means that Isaiah did not predict a virgin birth.
The assertion that the virgin birth story is based on Mary’s testimony is also lacking any adequate support. We have no knowledge of where the story came from, and the discrepancies in the two Nativity stories don’t leave us much cause to trust either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:56 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:12 AM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 257 of 1086 (866907)
11-17-2019 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:59 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
Your willful ignorance just makes you look more and more ridiculous. Why would you use the word pansy if you did not intend it as a vile insult? Why was there need for the insult? For you to claim you were unaware that it was a homophobic slur is stunning.
You have lost all sense of decency in your pursuit of vilifying anyone that questions your beliefs. Your hate is in some ways worse and more insidious than Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church. At least he was honest about his hate.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 258 of 1086 (866909)
11-17-2019 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:56 AM


The evidence shows Ravi does not own Sam Harris
Harris knows virtually nothing about the Bible that he has not gleaned from fellow atheists interested as he is in debunking it.
Seemingly, he knows more than Ravi. Ravi only knows more when you ignore his misrepresentations and lies.
Edited by Theodoric, : Subtitle changed to reflect reality

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1086 (866910)
11-17-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:59 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
"Pansy" is commonly used as a slur on homosexual men, but I believe you when you say you didn't know that and would suppose you probably think of it as more like "wimp." Yes? Of course you are not going to get the slightest benefit of the doubt from some here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 11:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 1086 (866911)
11-17-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by PaulK
11-17-2019 6:57 AM


"almah"
This is an argument we often have with apologists for Judaism, who of course in their zeal to deny the truth of Christianity, insist that the word "almah" means "young woman" and only "young woman" and never "virgin." The New Testament of course, specifically Matthew 1:23, translates "almah" as "virgin," that is enough authority for a Christian. I'd have to look it up but I recall that there is a place in the OT where that word is translated by the Jews themselves as "virgin." ...Oh let me check, I think it was in describing Dinah, the sister of the patriarchs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 6:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:22 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 261 of 1086 (866912)
11-17-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
11-17-2019 11:12 AM


Re: "almah"
I think you have misunderstood - I checked out the Dinah reference myself a while back.
The Greek word parthenos usually translated as virgin - is used for Dinah after the rape in the Septuagint. That’s the word used in Matthew (so why the NT translators authority comes into it I have no idea). Obviously the Septuagint translators did not necessarily mean virgin when they used parthenos. (I am pretty sure that the word translated as parthenos was not almah)
The author of Matthew was probably relying on the Greek translation of Isaiah, not translating it himself.
ABE this online Strong’s shows that the only appearance of almah in Genesis is in chapter 24, referring to Rebekah
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
Edited by PaulK, : Add url & fix it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:44 AM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 262 of 1086 (866913)
11-17-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-17-2019 11:07 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
So insulting someone's manhood is ok to you, as long as it isn't overtly homophobic?
I know you do understand the basis of insulting people sexuality, you just like playing stupid. There is no place for these slurs in this forum or polite society. They do not even belong on the middle school playground where you are most likely to hear them.
As I said before, no decency at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:50 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 1086 (866914)
11-17-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
11-17-2019 11:22 AM


Re: "almah"
Cmmentary I found says that Matthew did do the translation himself, and now I'm forgetting the evidence. Oh, simply the fact that the Jewish translation of Isaiah 7:14 didn't use "virgin."
It turns out that it was not Dinah I was thinking of, but the word "virgins" used twice in the Song of Solomon: 1:3 and 6:8, both trnalsations of "almah."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 1086 (866915)
11-17-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Theodoric
11-17-2019 11:43 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
The idea that we can't say something "insulting" about some group or other is silly. It's not the same thing as insulting a member of the forum. I call the Republicans "wimps" who should be standing up for Trump but aren't. Just a version of how Phat used "pansy" I would suppose. Don't get too "nice" about these things, it only leads to totalitarian control and shutting up people's free speech.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 11:43 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 265 of 1086 (866916)
11-17-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
11-17-2019 11:44 AM


Re: "almah"
quote:
Cmmentary I found says that Matthew did do the translation himself, and now I'm forgetting the evidence. Oh, simply the fact that the Jewish translation of Isaiah 7:14 didn't use "virgin."
What Jewish translation ? The Septuagint used parthenos, just as I said. And that is the one that matters.
quote:
It turns out that it was not Dinah I was thinking of, but the word "virgins" used twice in the Song of Solomon: 1:3 and 6:8, both trnalsations of "almah."
And the significance of this is? Is there any reason to think that that is anything more than a questionable choice by the translator (especially in the case of 6:8).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 12:03 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 12:13 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 266 of 1086 (866918)
11-17-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
11-17-2019 11:54 AM


Re: "almah"
It is times like this I miss commentary from arachnophilia
Faith still would not listen, but the rest of us would be wiser for his expertise.
Not downplaying your arguments and knowledge, but arach was a true expert on the subject.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:54 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 12:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 1086 (866919)
11-17-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Theodoric
11-17-2019 12:03 PM


Re: "almah"
Arach was/is learned in things Hebrew and Judaism so he's most likely going to support the Jewish point of view. I of course believe the authority of the New Testament on the subject. But arach was always interesting, it would be nice if he'd come back for a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 12:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 1086 (866920)
11-17-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
11-17-2019 11:54 AM


Re: "almah"
You're right, I got confused. I don't know the source of the translation of Song of Songs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:54 AM PaulK has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 269 of 1086 (866921)
11-17-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:56 AM


Re: Ravi owns Sam Harris
Phat writes:
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".
That has nothing to do with anything in the post you're replying to. i specifically said, "I don't use atheist authors for my arguments."

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 270 of 1086 (866922)
11-17-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-17-2019 11:07 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
Faith writes:
Of course you are not going to get the slightest benefit of the doubt from some here.
The thing is, there was no reason to insult atheists at large in the first place. It was childish.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
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