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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence.
Phat writes: I may not legally speak for "believers" but you do not speak for reality nor evidence. That jury is still out. No Phat, that jury is not still out. It is not necessary for anyone to speak for reality and evidence since they will always trump beliefs and fantasies.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
You speak for no one but yourself.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.
ringo writes:
This is your world view. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time. Phat writes:
And you're wrong.
We don't view the bible as we do any normal book. Phat writes:
If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.
I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Phat writes:
You're the one who doesn't get it. You quoted me. I said, "Any one story CAN contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time." The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it. Did you miss the word CAN? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theo writes: OK, I'll give you that. I am defending what I believe. I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me. Perhaps this is simply an attempt to invoke the appeal to popularity, so I won't digress.
You speak for no one but yourself. ringo writes: OK, I will agree that humans are capable of truth, exaggeration, embellishment, and lies all in one argument. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.I do point out your attitude of being unimpressed with the Bible any more than you are of any other story. And I say that this is your world view. You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said. Such double-mindedness! ringo writes: You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion. You reject Jesus as an authority (unless using Him against me), and you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed. Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors...they have been debunked repeatedly also. I recently read a good book in which Ravi Zacharias shredded the feeble assertions of Sam Harris, to use but one example.
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong. If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist. Why couldn't I be a scientist? Scientists reject evidence all the time. Why couldn't I be a critic? Or a scholar? Or even a layman such as yourself? I could just as quickly say that if you reject the existence of Jesus, you may as well be an atheist. Still, I have noticed that you don't accept that label...any more than I accept the label of creationist, except a Cosmological and Theological Creationist. I don't believe that in the beginning, there were chemicals, as some unenlightened minds seem to do.
ringo writes: OK, I'll accept that. So, where do you want the argument to go from here? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment, and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me.
Can you show this or are you just going to continue to assert?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What has one got to do with the other? YOU are the one who claims to believe in Jesus, yet YOU are the one who rejects what He supposedly said. Of course I "dare" to point that out. Whatever I believe is totally irrelevant to the inconsistency of what YOU claim to believe.
You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said. Phat writes:
Authority has nothing to do with it.
You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion. Phat writes:
As I said, I have no evidence at all that He existed and neither do you. How is that "insufficient"?
... you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed. Phat writes:
I don't use atheist authors for my arguments. You know that. Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors... (And that's a pretty childish attempt at an insult, by the way.)
Phat writes:
Bring your "debunking" here.
...they have been debunked repeatedly also. Phat writes:
No they don't. Scientists reject evidence all the time."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors.
Nothing quite like going complete homophobic to show your right wing fundie credentials is there.If you can cast disgusting insults, so can I. You dare to talk about civility, but you only care that people are civil to you, but you do not have to be civil to those that disagree with you. ABEI apologize to the forum in general. I will not apologize to Phat. There is no place here for homophobic, ignorant hateful slurs. He attacks atheists with a vile slur and he is surprised anyone takes offense. He has no shame. He repeats calls for civility but does not feel he has to be civil to those that "disgust" him. Again, I apologize to the forum and Percy for my outburst. Edited by Theodoric, : Remove words that did not need to be used and to apologize to the forum Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
wow. Seems you took a general insult and made it personal. I've grown to expect that from you, however. You project this aura of intellectual loftiness and yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you. We have hope that you will work this little issue out. I do know therapists...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
phat writes: And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. jar writes: Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence. A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing!Take John Shelby Spong. Wiki writes: Granted its is only one man's opinion, and he has as much right to spout nonsense as I do, but your argument that your club is established remains contentious, to say the least. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination. Beliefs can and will be challenged. Mine are, and there is no reason Spongs can't be nor yours also. Clubs can also be challenged. Spong does his club no credit, in my opinion. And to be honest, one reason that I always attack you is that you take on virtually all apologetics and Classical Christianity. (except, of course, for your club) This must evidently threaten me. I'm not sure why else I habitually challenge you. You have never really been rude to me around here, though you do always challenge my assertions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Guess Theodoric is a touchy type in general. I thought I was the only one who pushed his buttons. Maybe we should, or I should, work at ladling on the syrup in case it might soften him up.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you.
Street thuggery? You use a homophobic slur and expect no one to take offense? You should be ashamed of yourself, but like a classic fundie you have no shame and no decency.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But once again Phat.
What does the evidence show? Where is there any evidence that anything Spong said is false?
Phat writes: A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing! Well, it is an easy issue to check. The establishment is the Apostolic Succession for one line. And in case you were not aware, that Chapter of Club Christian was established by Henry VIII and is the Chapter that gave Christianity the Book of Common Prayer and the Authorized King James Bible. There is no real reason to question what is really easy to answer.
Phat writes: A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. Yes, as a Christian I believe Jesus exists but what does that have to do with the topic? The issue is testing what the Apologists say and so far you have not presented even one example of an Apologist that stands up to even cursory scrutiny. Edited by jar, : on ---------> one
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".
Ravi set him straight.
The End Of Reason writes: And so on. Harris knows virtually nothing about the Bible that he has not gleaned from fellow atheists interested as he is in debunking it. They are hardly the final word on the subject. It's all too clear that Harris is not a biblical scholar and that he should have read further into Isaiah. Has Harris ever studied the very complexity of this subject? Is he aware of the nature of Hebrew prophecy and its genre? Does he know that there are numerous examples of Hebrew prophecies that have a compenetration of two fulfillmentsone in part and the other in whole? This is so in 2 Samuel 7, which refers in its fulfillment to both David and the Messiah; the same is true in Psalm 2. It is a common technique in Hebrew prophecy. The Hebrews understood compenetration and how it worked, and Matthew was a Hebrew. If Isaiah had used the typical Hebrew word for virgin, Beulah, it would have been the wrong word for the situation. The immediate fulfillment of the prophecy comes in Isaiah 8:3, when Isaiah's wife gives birth to a son. The people had asked for a sign that God would indeed send the Messiah, and the birth of Isaiah's son was the immediate sign that the greater prophecy and promise of the virgin birth would be fulfilled. After all, what good to them would a sign be that wasn't given until seven hundred years later? So Isaiah used the word almah, which is literally translated young maiden and can include virginity. Therefore, it is the very word he needed in order to cover both situationsthat of Isaiah's wife and of Joseph's fiance, Mary. But even more to the point, the doctrine of the virgin birth is based on Mary's own admission. Joseph wished to end his marital contract with Mary because he was perplexed until the angel appeared to him and verified Mary's story. By religious law he would have had to go to the scribeChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Since when is it a homophobic slur? I find nothing suggesting such on the internet.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As usual, you simply ignore all the information and evidence that you don't like.
quote:
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