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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... At first the title didn't sound valid, but then I read it and now think it gets at the whitehot center of what is wrong in America today, how the Left, the Liberal Left, is acting just like its models in Marxism, Communism and Socialism, using intimidation tactics againt ordinary people to shut them up and drive them out of the public square, which is causing conservatives to lie low for fear of what they will do to them. ... Could you actually substantiate any of this codswallop?
But I think Prager nails it:
By Dennis Prager The dominant force in America and many other Western countries today is fear of the left. This is a result of the fact that the most dynamic religion of the past 100 years has been neither Christianity nor Islam. It has been leftism. Whoever does not recognize this does not understand the contemporary world. I am always amused when people think the ultimate insult is to call liberal thinking religious. Doesn't that imply that all religions are bad and need to be hated? LOL.
... using intimidation tactics againt ordinary people to shut them up and drive them out of the public square, which is causing conservatives to lie low for fear of what they will do to them. ... Curiously I have seen just the opposite. Obviously this broad paint brush pile of hate and innuendo will appeal to people that feel that liberals need to even more intimidated on radio, in print, and on tv. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Gays don't want to come out of the closet here because they are afraid folks will think they are democrats. And when I lived in Mississippi I was asked: "So, are you catholic, protestant ... or democrat?" Yeah, conservatives really need to hide so they won't be subject to hate ... Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I have no control over the asterisks, ... Your control, dear Faith, is through your choice to either use polite civil language rather than to indulge in your usual rant descending into ad hominems and mischaracterization of people, instead of dealing with the issues. It is a choice you make every time you post. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The right does not threaten and intimidate and actually beat people up. ... False. Even ignoring the rising H8 crimes by White Supremacists and pretend Nazis and other right groups that you cannot ignore being on the right ... and the increase in right wing H8 crimes in the last few years (FBI statistics), there remains an ongoing campaign to demonize liberals. Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't occur. We've had this discussion regarding websites posting pictures of democrats with targets over them. You really have to be blind to think it is only one way Faith. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I thought Prager did a pretty good job of showing some of the threats. ... The politics of fear was invented by the right wing to mold gullible people to their party.
... I'd add the beating up of a guy right after the election because he'd voted for Trump; the hounding of Republicans out of restaurants; the intimidation and accusation of racism of the kid wearing the MAGA hat minding his own business after a pro **** event; the physical violence by Antifa on campuses when conservatives are scheduled to speak. I did mention the *********** of Sebastian Gorka and his daughter, calling him a Nazi yet, someone who had lived under Nazism and finally was able to escape from it. and don't forget the beating up of people by Trump supporters because they dared to criticize your "golden boy" ... as he requested they do.
If you mean being intimidated into silence, well yes that's everywhere, Prager notes some of it. I'd be afraid to wear a MAGA hat in public, a lot of people are. It is the new KKK uniform, isn't it. Shame you can't wear it outside and show your true colors.
Seems to me just to say it's not a rational position, it's based on belief or feeling. I thought it interesting that Prager called the Left romanticism, wish he'd expanded on that. You don't know what rational is. And "Make America Great Again" is not a purely romanticized but myopic view of American history, like thinking there was a time when America wasn't racist and that race only became a problem when some uppity blacks thought they could ride at the front of the bus and (gasp) asked to be treated as people, with the audacity to carry signs saying "I am a man" -- it's all their fault for disrupting the system. Right Faith? Better the good old days when people new how to behave.
Liberals aren't intimidated anywhere, they are in-your-face in the street, on the campus, certainly in print and on TV, what on earth are you talking about. Some have had enough of the right wing hate and are returning it. They've had enough of H8 radio and H8 crimes, of blacks being shot for being black. People being fired for being too liberal on tv and radio. Push back is not intimidation. You don't see it because you are a rabidly partisan person, like the football fan that paints their body at the games. Too wrapped up in your "tribe" to see the bad that happens to "outsiders". You can't handle the truth. That's why you bath in H8 literature like Prager's book. And I see you've reverted to shouting all caps again. How fitting to see your H8 filled posts. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Curiously there is nothing wrong per se in populism in my mind. I would think that a president/leader should be popular with the population.
quote: Bernie Sanders is a populist candidate, one of the reasons he could beat Humty Dumbty in a popularity contest.
... It is my understanding that Trump's "base" is labeled as Populists.
Dictionary writes: a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups."the question is whether he will tone down his fiery populism now that he has joined the political establishment" support for populist politicians or policies. "the government came to power on a wave of populism" the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people. "art museums did not gain bigger audiences through a new populism" It then occurred to me that populism is an offshoot of white privilege. ... That depends more on how it is used. Humpty Dumbty makes his appeals to white supremacist groups, calls Nazis "fine people" and caters to bigotry against people of color and immigrants, using "them against us" arguments.Bernie makes his appeal to working class people of all colors and stripes, using "not me US" arguments. Humpty Dumbty draws the line between white folk and colored folk. Bernie draws the line between working people and rich/privileged people (which includes Humpty Dumbty)
... Though not a populist, I can identify with much of how they think. I have no concerns about being marginalized as long as the other cultures asserting themselves throughout the world don't attempt to minimize my position in life. Critics would say that the essence of white privilege is that it is perpetuated by maintaining an artificial construct. Indeed "white privilege" does play a part in Humpty Dumbty's arguments that promote it's preservation. Bernie argues to remove/reduce "white privilege" to make the world a more level playing field for all citizens.
many of us resent being placed as just another one of many belief systems. We believe that our way is the truth. ... Isn't that just wanting to maintain "Christian Privilege?" This is another difference between Humpty Dumbty and his fake Christianity (so he can get evangelical votes/support) and Bernie with support from muslims, christians and jews, etc. You are just one of many belief systems, including many Christian sects.
... Granted this can be seen to be simply another artificial construct, but I am no fan of Christian Nationalism. I suppose that Jesus warned us we would be persecuted. You see it all as a myth because you fall for the mythicists position. Pence is for Christian Nationalism. This is bad. This is what the colonization of America was to escape. Curiously I have no beef with mythic beliefs ... as long as they don't deny scientific reality (ie - "young earth" idiocy, etc). Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Explain the origins of its use, please, because its so distractingly annoying that it takes away from your central message. I'd ask Percy. As I understand it, Percy got tired of suspending Faith whenever she got into one of her rant modes, and set up a filter to take words she used as invective/insults (eg - leftist) and replace it with asterisks. You can usually {peek} at the message to see the actual words and her increasingly complex attempts to subvert the filter by misspellings ... instead of changing her behavior. I don''t think it's effective, as nobody that is getting filtered seem to avoid the terms. by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm reading Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline right now. One of the points it makes is that most countries of the western world have a fertility rate below replacement rate, which means their populations are decreasing. Replacement rate is 2.1, and we're at 1.8. Japan's is at 1.44, and their population has already started to decline. We and western Europe will soon follow them. Eastern Europe's population decline has already begun. Bulgaria has declined from 9 million in 1985 to 7 million today. It is a rational reaction to overpopulation, it doesn't mean it will continue until there is no population. When populations exceed the carrying capacity of their ecology, the population adjusts by reducing population.
Fertility rates decline as women's rights and education increase, ... Women's rights are part of education and a progressive society that believes that every person deserves the same rights to pursue their life the way they want to live will adjust overall behavior accordingly. It's not only women declining to have children, but men as well, often choosing smaller families than their spouses would like.
... and the answer is immigration, something the right seems firmly against. Despite the opposition the U.S. accepts about a million immigrants per year, but if we don't want to have a declining population, if we don't want to be hollowed out from the inside, then that number needs to rise to about three million per year. And if we as an educated progressive society want a smaller population then having a temporary declining population is desirable. Most of the problems in the world can be traced to overpopulation. We don't need to live cheek by jowl in ever more crowded environments. The population in the US is over twice what it was when I was in school. Global climate change has accelerated in that time frame as more people demand and use more energy wasting toys. The mining of fossil fuels to supply that energy demand has also doubled. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This is an interesting topic. Agreed.
When it comes to securing voting machines - which should be far less controversial - the Right tend to vote the measures down. Moscow Mitch is not interested in protecting our democracy from Russian, Saudi Arabia, China, etc from hacking voting machines or using other methods to disrupt our elections, even after showing that high school kids can hack the machines in less than 1/2 hour.
The Right are quick to call for voter ID checks, which would make it harder to vote. But the evidence that such restrictions are justified seems to be absent. Especially when you see what IDs are permitted and which aren't -- NRA yes, College no. If the purpose is to prevent someone from voting twice, any photo ID should work. But more to the point, any state instigating such a law should fall over itself to provide such IDs at no cost to the individual (no "poll tax"), even including at the voting stations. They should also be able to do it when a person reaches voting age -- they were able to issue draft cards after all. But they are against any measure to make it easier to vote. Or to get a correct count of the votes. Election fraud occurs when the reported tally does not match the actual vote count, and if the vote tally is affected by hacking the tally machines while there is no paper trail or means to recount the votes then you are wide open to election fraud. Then there is gerrymandering. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I think he means, and I would agree, that what it does to nation states is problematic to their survival. Japan is having a rough go of it and it doesn't take an economist to see how an inverted pyramid with a declining working class can realistically sustain a growing aging population. Only for an unchecked capitalistic system where the only motive for doing something is profit coupled with the idea that the economy has to grow instead of stabilize. And we don't need the economy we currently have, where most of it is composed of paper smoke -- stocks and bonds. The "growth" of the economy in the last 4 years, for example, has only benefited those with stocks and bonds selling them back and forth, much of it done with tax give-aways to the rich and companies buying up their stocks to increase their value and make the companies artificially "profitable."
China has tried to right the ship by lifting their one-child (male, only) policy. Except there's now a generation of males who have no suitors of the same age because they were systematically exterminated. China still has an overpopulation problem, which is what the one child policy was meant to address. The unintended consequences of this was families selecting a male child.
This has become very popular among Western societies. In terms of overall population it certainly could be problematic for ecological reasons to not diminish the population. ... I disagree, I think it would be good specifically for ecological reasons. Habitat destruction, species extinctions, mono-cultures for increasingly toxic food supplies as pesticides/herbicides are (over)used. Silent Spring by Rachel Carson was an early warning regarding toxic ecologies that is being ignored, again. Could you name some benefits of increasing these? Do you know of any species that benefits from increasing population above the carrying capacity of their ecology/habitat?
... In the shorter term (50 year periods) the decline in population could be bad. ... How? Give me some examples, not mere assertions.
... The US has been able to buffer against it through immigration. Japan has remained insular and isolationist, to a fault. There is little doubt that immigration boosts the $ economy, the question is whether the society as a whole benefits: are american workers better off? Curiously, I'll bet that you agree that they aren't, and that this is one of the big reasons for the vocal objections to immigration: they use social resources that people feel should be reserved for citizens. Because they are on the losing side of the $ economy and they are on the losing side of the personal/public welfare economy. They're unhappy because income inequality is increasing and they are virtually standing still and inflation is eating whatever gains they get: costs keep rising but their paycheck is static. And let's be honest: the cost of living increase is not a percentage -- a gallon of milk costs the same for a billionaire as it does for someone on food stamps -- it is the inflation of costs for basic needs and should be the same amount for everyone. Using a percentage just siphons more off the top to the higher salaries ... the already rich.
quote: bold/italic for emphasis What is the "public Welfare?" ... let's take a stab at it:
quote: And we can look at:
quote: Japan btw ranks 58th. Now I would include income inequality as a factor, something that unchecked capitalism increases, as the unspoken goal of unchecked capitalism is to create the fewest possible rich people and the most possible poor people and nobody in between. This is what is behind income inequality.
Even with the drop in population among many nations, the Malthusian population curve is still increasing. Obviously there is a limit to what the Earth can sustain. Its tough. In either direction there will be existential problems. You probably mean the drop in reproductive rate, the population is still increasing because births/incoming still greater than deaths/departures. This gives a time delay until births/incoming = deaths/departures.
... In either direction there will be existential problems. Especially when we add climate change and the loss of human habitats. Population distribution is more the issue than population levels. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .. Edited by RAZD, : ...by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... The Moral Law can't change. ... So we still stone people?
... such as the concept of Karma in estern religions. those religions also recognize a Hell. ... Buddhists, among others, believe in reincarnation, so if there is a hell it is being reborn in this world ... with Christians harassing them and insisting on their beliefs ... Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Buddhist Hell as I understand consists of different realms for the punishment of different kinds of sins. I haven't studied it, why should I? I gave evidence that it exists and that's enough for my purposes in this discussion. And it isn't permanent banishment, so equating it with Fundy Christian Hell is a false comparison -- it is closer to purgatory.
quote: Of course it is clearly myth rather than fact and you can apply whatever fantasy you want to it. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... but there is also reincarnation which brings you back as an animal or insect which isn't much more fun. ... How do you know? If you behave like a pig and then are reincarnated as a pig then the body fits the behavior. But you also have the opportunity to experience all of life in it's myriad ways, reliving evolution, and having a much higher reverence of all life in nature.
... Anyway the Buddhist Hell it is a place where sins are punished, and I bet most people don't know that, most people think Christianity invented Hell. ... Actually it is/was Hinduism that has a closer myth to Christian hell.
... But no, what Christianity gave us was a Savior from it. If you are willing to go through thousands of lives before you finally figure out how to snuff out your karma and experience Nirvana, go ahead. ... So Buddhism gives you a way to save yourself no matter what you've done, but Christianity only saves the fundy believers. I'll take door #2.
... I find it too hard to believe in reincarnation myself, and I know of some actual Buddhists who fear coming back as an animal, speaking of fearing Hell. Or even coming back as a human being only with no memory of their identity in this life. Sounds like a personal problem Faith. Different strokes for different folks. Buddhists also have little problem with scientific reality, unlike Fundy Christians. But then you probably equate Buddhism with leftism ... for the simple reason that it is outside your belief sphere/bubble ... to give a nod back to the topic ... Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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This is getting too long for a thread aside discussion. It is your thread, though, so if you want to continue ...
... One friend confided that she is afraid of what she will become in the afterlife. ... She needs to release the fear, the clinging to this life, and accept what she can do in this life. This is why you should also revere all life.
But you don't remember any of it so it is lost as any kind of educational experience. No longer being who you are in this life is part of what my friend is afraid of. She will not remember this life according to the teaching. ... Again, she needs to release her clinging to this life. What you carry from life to life is your karma, and that is what leads you to ultimate nirvana and release from the wheel of life.
... I know I was very surprised when I first discovered that a version of Hell is found in many traditions. But not all. Norse mythology has Valhalla, for instance, at the end of days. Many indigenous people have a belief in "happy hunting grounds" where life continues.
quote: Japan ancestor spirit belief is also different:
quote: So I would say that belief in some form of hell is not universal, that non-Christian beliefs have many different concepts of what happens after life.
That's your choice but it's hard work, very hard work, practicing all the rules and meditating on your mental states for long periods of time over and over and over again, and not many who practice these things actually get to Nirvana while the rest have to endure at least another round of reincarnation. Hopefully as a human being thanks to their Buddhist practices but that is not guaranteed. So it seems to you, however I see little difference to the daily life of a committed Christian believer, practicing all the rules and praying on your mental states for long periods of time over and over and over again.
Meanwhile Jesus hold out his hand saying "Come to me and I will give you rest" meanin rest from all the toil to obey the Law or learn how to avoid its consequences. In Him we have rest from the Moral Law. All we have to do is believe He died in our place. If this makes believers "fundies" so be it, but it's a very odd way to describe what Jesus has done for us. Except it is not that easy in practice, you have to re-up every Sunday, follow the laws every day, and don't forget your duty to harass non-believers and convert heathens and stone the sinners ... etc etc etc ... If all you had to do was hold hands with god #2 (half god, half human), then you wouldn't need to interfere with the lives of others.
I don't have any particular reason to equate it with leftist politics as an ideology, but it is a fact that the Buddhists I've met of are Democrats. and so, leftist, in your view.
I became a Christian by reading up on the religions and that includes Buddhism. I didn't get deeply into any of them but I wanted to familiarize myself with their basic teachings. My first Christian reading was in the Catholic mystics, and it seemed to me that John of the Cross was practicing a form of Buddhist meditation. How true that is I don't know but it was an impression I had when I was reading about religions in general. I actually fought the idea of becoming a Protestant because I had a lot of the prejudices against it that I find expressed here: "Jerry Falwell? Oh no!" Yes, when my path seemed to be leading me in that direction that's how I felt. It's also incidentally the point where I started losing old friends. They did their best to turn me away from it but I could see that's where the truth was. And then I found C. S. Lewis and other Protestant teacchers and they eased me in the right direction. Yes, you've said this before. What I don't see is why you need to be conservative when many Christians in general and Protestants in particular are liberal on many issues.
quote: In fact there are many Protestant sects and a spectrum of beliefs from liberal to conservative. Just as there is in other types of Christianity.
... And then I found C. S. Lewis and other Protestant teacchers and they eased me in the right direction. Curiously, I read the Narnia series as a child and thought it was rather fun mythology, but definitely fantasy. Personally I find Dr. Martin Luther King Jr a much more inspirational voice for Christianity's role in life. I don't think it was fear of the left that drove him, but rather love for his fellow man/woman. It also seems to me that he practiced what he preached, embracing non-violent protest and working for equal rights. He walked the walk, not just talked the talk. It seems to me that many Christians, including preachers(megachurch preachers, tv preachers, etc), don't really practice Christianity and I have to agree with Gandhi on this:
quote: Now certainly establishment types (bankers, big business, rich) feared Gandhi and MLK, but not so much because they were "leftists" but because they challenged their white privilege power positions and authority. Just like the 1% billionaires that don't endorse Bernie, calling him an "existential threat" and crying on TV over Warren's proposed rich tax. They challenge their white privilege power positions and authority. And are more Christian in doing so. Christ (if he existed) according to the written screeds is/was/would be a leftist. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes I know there are many versions of the afterlife but I was particularly surprised by the existence of places of punishment or Hells because I'd though Hell was strictly Christian. If there exist many cultures with such places of punishment, ... ... Even where the afterlife seems pleasant there usually turns out to be some part of it for punishing the wicked. In any case however many there are it is a theme that is found more frequenctly that I had expected. ... and ignoring the fact that there are many belief systems that don't, and moreover, that those that do, have several versions where some similar punishment is not forever, or some where is not as extreme ...
... it makes sense of some biblical doctrines that seem to suggest that the whole world yearns for a Savior. ... And Chistianity is the only religion that offers a Savior. The Savior IS in fact the religion of Christianity. Salvation is what it is all about. ... So only Christianity offers a "savior" to avoid eternal punishment, while the other religions have alternate ways to get out of jail.
... Transformative and perfecting, saving us from sin, and from the Moral Law that we sin against, and a universal Moral Law is recognized in some form or other in many religions. Hinduism anhd Buddhism for sure. A law at least that rewards and punishes you for good and bad behavior. Karma for instance. Other religions deal with morals and positive or negative behaviors in different ways, and it seems to me that the fundamentalist Christian method was the worst.
Liberalism is a bogus development in Christianity, a conforming to the world that is specifically warned against in scripture. ... According to your worldview. There are many Christians who disagree with you.
Liberalism is a bogus development in Christianity, a conforming to the world that is specifically warned against in scripture. According to your worldview. There are many Christians who disagree with you. For myself I look at who walks the walk rather than just talk the talk, and I find liberal Christians more "Christlike" in their behavior that fundamentalist "Christians" and it seems we have more to fear from the right than the left, and I do this by looking around the world at alt-right movements and violence. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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