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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 1086 (865830)
10-31-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
10-31-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
If there is an absolute right and wrong interpretation for the Bible, I go with what I know (or believe) I find little value in the God of the Bible as you describe Him.
STOP.
FULL STOP.
Interpreting in Bible is not the same thing as acknowledging that the Bible says what it says.
I don't "interpret" the Bible.
That is what Apologists do.
I acknowledge the Bible actually says what it says rather than pretend it says what I wished it said.
Phat writes:
I do not believe that humans are solely responsible for their actions and destiny, would the God whom I believe in exist.
STOP.
FULL STOP.
I do not say humans are solely responsible for their actions and destiny and no one but a Snake Oil Salesman conman would make such a claim. Stuff happens. We do not have control over what religion we happen to get born into as one example.
Stop making stuff up and implying that what you make up is what I think or say.
And most importantly:
Phat writes:
I find little value in the God of the Bible as you describe Him.
GOD, if GOD exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
GOD is not Jeeves.
The God you want is of value to YOU and so that is the God you create.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 10-31-2019 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:03 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 1086 (865869)
11-01-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
10-31-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
One reason that I like sparring with you is that you get me to think.
jar writes:
Interpreting in the Bible is not the same thing as acknowledging that the Bible says what it says.
Well, even the apologists know that! The main difference between you and them is that you rarely if ever presuppose anything while many other Christians do.
I don't "interpret" the Bible.
That is what Apologists do.
STOP
FULL STOP
And yet you have. Or at least you have interpreted GOD, God, and god.
jars belief statement writes:
One of my favorites is the tale of Peter walking on water. Jesus convinces him to come out and stroll the waves, but when Peters's suspension of reason fails him, he starts to sink. Jesus laughs and in a friendly manner chides him, but helps him back to the boat.
Another classic is Doubting Thomas. Tommy says "Yeah? You say you are Jesus so prove it?" Jesus kinda laughs and says "Sure Tommy. Come here. Stick your hands in the holes. Doubt I could do much water walking with these feet, eh?"
Even Jesus' first miracle is an example of His sense of humor. Jesus makes the miraculous beer run but does he spoil the fun by explaining it? Nope. He just sits back and lets the good times roll.
So that is what the Bible says, or what jar wishes it has said? You seem to describe Jesus apart from simply being fully human as a man who lets people do what they feel like doing and who shares in the fun, and the beer runs, and the characteristic that Biblical Christians would describe as "of the flesh". You indirectly teach that Jesus simply taught us to do our best and didn't expect us to worship Him or GOD except by that action of doing our best. I have many more examples from the archives. You very much DO interpret the Bible and its characters.
I acknowledge the Bible actually says what it says rather than pretend it says what I wished it said.
Why do you dislike apologists so much? Don't they use what the scriptures say to support what they believe the text says? And how are you any different? I charge that you too interpret the Bible.
I don't deny that you present the book without elaboration, but when you say really stupid things like "the snake told the truth. God (character) lied" you become an embarrassment to classic Christian interpretation.
Finally...notice how to magnify the snake's truthful statement that we would not die, as well as the God character saying we would.
You fail to mention that the snake also said that we would be as Gods. The fact that this is somewhat truthful among today's secular humanists and unbelievers should be something worth pointing out (if this snake is so honest)
The Bible clearly says that Satan is the father of lies. Most Christian interpretations show the snake as being a metaphor. If you claim that this metaphor does not clearly represent satan who does it represent?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 10-31-2019 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 11-01-2019 12:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 11-02-2019 11:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 1086 (865870)
11-01-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
10-31-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
jar writes:
GOD, if GOD exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
And yet would you not agree that Jesus is? Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 10-31-2019 4:29 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 1086 (865875)
11-01-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
11-01-2019 12:01 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
You seem to describe Jesus apart from simply being fully human as a man who lets people do what they feel like doing and who shares in the fun, and the beer runs, and the characteristic that Biblical Christians would describe as "of the flesh".
No Phat, it's not what I describe it is what is actually written.
Phat writes:
Why do you dislike apologists so much? Don't they use what the scriptures say to support what they believe the text says? And how are you any different? I charge that you too interpret the Bible.
I don't dislike Apologists; just like Snake Oil Salesmen they have a job and many sell the product successfully.
But the difference is that they pick pieces parts out of context when it supports their position and simply make shit up to explain the parts that do not support their position.
Phat writes:
I don't deny that you present the book without elaboration, but when you say really stupid things like "the snake told the truth. God (character) lied" you become an embarrassment to classic Christian interpretation.
Yet the fact is that is what is actually written so it is not I who embarrass classic Christian interpretation but reality and the Bible that causes the Apologists to get their panties in a wad.
Phat writes:
The Bible clearly says that Satan is the father of lies. Most Christian interpretations show the snake as being a metaphor. If you claim that this metaphor does not clearly represent satan who does it represent?
There is no Satan in Genesis 2&3 just like there is no "Fall" in Genesis 2&3. In Genesis 2&3 the serpent tells the truth while the God lies. The fact that other authors in other Bible stories say "Satan is the father of lies." is simply yet another example of the many contradictions that exist throughout the Bible. Remember in most of the Bible stories Satan is an agent of God and only does what God tells Satan to do; to be the "tester".
Phat writes:
You fail to mention that the snake also said that we would be as Gods.
Have you ever actually read Genesis 2&3 Phat?
quote:
Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
In the story God says that they did "become as one of us, to know good and evil" which is exactly what the serpent said would happen.
quote:
Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Again Phat, I do not interpret the Bible; it is the Apologists who need to do that to support the utter nonsense that it is "One Book" and that "one part defines some other part" and that it was "God Breathed" and all the other rubbish they market.
AbE:
Phat writes:
And yet would you not agree that Jesus is? Do you not believe that Jesus is God?
Sheesh. Again, what does that have to do with what I posted and you even quoted?
JESUS, if JESUS exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 3:32 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 1086 (865900)
11-02-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
11-01-2019 12:52 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
t, I do not interpret the Bible; it is the Apologists who need to do that to support the utter nonsense that it is "One Book" and that "one part defines some other part" and that it was "God Breathed" and all the other rubbish they market.
One man's rubbish is another man's refuge. First off, how do you know that God does not speak through it? I recall once you said that if the God of popular apologetic scriptural interpretation were actually real, you likely would laugh in his face. By refusing to believe, you are actually advocating a different religion than Christianity as taught by the majority. Your God is unknowable and cares nothing special towards humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 11-01-2019 12:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 11-02-2019 7:39 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 1086 (865904)
11-02-2019 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
11-02-2019 3:32 AM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
First off, how do you know that God does not speak through it?
I look at the actual evidence Phat; it's what was actually written. When you look at what is actually written there are contradictions and fallacies and simply wrong information and evolving tales and all the signs you would expect if it was written by a whole host of different folk with different goals and different cultures and different religions.
There are sections that are only related to particular laws of on segment of society, sections related to different cultures between two Hebrew clans, sections that are just collections of bumper stickers often with two or more mutually exclusive contradicting sayings.
The evidence shows that the Bible is not the product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal.
Phat writes:
By refusing to believe, you are actually advocating a different religion than Christianity as taught by the majority.
Except Phat, the reality is that I do believe; I just don't believe the silly stuff that is refuted by the actual evidence.
Phat writes:
Your God is unknowable and cares nothing special towards humans.
Just like the God in Genesis 1? Like the God who wipes out all living critters except a favored few?
Think Phat. If GOD created all that is, seen and unseen then why would that GOD treated humans as something special?
Once again you come back to the idea that "a God should be of value to Phat?"

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 3:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 10:01 AM jar has replied
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 8:10 PM jar has replied
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 8:10 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 1086 (865907)
11-02-2019 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
11-02-2019 7:39 AM


How To Be A Christian
I look at the actual evidence Phat; it's what was actually written. When you look at what is actually written there are contradictions and fallacies and simply wrong information and evolving tales and all the signs you would expect if it was written by a whole host of different folk with different goals and different cultures and different religions.
If so, what is a modern seeker to do? Where you and I differ is that you believe some things that I would also challenge as nonsense. Let me see if I can lay some of them out without misrepresenting what you say (or have said)
The evidence shows that the Bible is not the product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal.
For the vast majority of Christians, the Bible is not simply some scholarly study from antiquity. It speaks of the character of Jesus Christ. Every single other book that has anything to do with the concept of the church, and of a believer, and of church tradition also gravitates toward this direction. I note with bemusement how my friend ringo always brays loudly about embracing "the message" and throwing the messenger away(a concept he likely fleshed out courtesy of *you*. Some questions related to this are as follows:
  • Should the universal message be one of One God and One Spirit amongst the people or should it be of the people uniting, forming a consensus and an understanding of unity as relativistic? I, of course, embrace the former. I believe that it was the intention of Jesus as well. You guys will argue that the message is really simple: Feed and clothe and love others as you feed and clothe and love yourself. Without religion. Without apologetics. Without the need for agreement on Who or What to worship. Am I right or am I wrong?
  • How did Jesus pray to GOD?
  • Does the Book Of Common Prayer offer support for the message of unity in recognizing One God? Is The BCP a product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal?
    JESUS, if JESUS exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
    I need evidence of this. It sounds totally WRONG.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : added point

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 96 by jar, posted 11-02-2019 7:39 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 98 by jar, posted 11-02-2019 11:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 384 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 98 of 1086 (865908)
    11-02-2019 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
    11-02-2019 10:01 AM


    Re: How To Be A Christian
    Phat writes:
    Should the universal message be one of One God and One Spirit amongst the people or should it be of the people uniting, forming a consensus and an understanding of unity as relativistic? I, of course, embrace the former. I believe that it was the intention of Jesus as well. You guys will argue that the message is really simple: Feed and clothe and love others as you feed and clothe and love yourself. Without religion. Without apologetics. Without the need for agreement on Who or What to worship. Am I right or am I wrong?
    Those are two totally different and totally unrelated questions Phat.
    First, why should there be ANY universal message?
    Second, beliefs are irrelevant beyond an individual. It is only when beliefs lead to actions, to behavior that we can or should make any judgements.
    Phat writes:
    Does the Book Of Common Prayer offer support for the message of unity in recognizing One God? Is The BCP a product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal?
    Yes and no and maybe and kinda.
    Again, the BCP was only relevant to one sect, one Chapter of Club Christian and certainly only as relevant beyond that as any other collection of writings; for example the Eight Fold Path or works of Confucius or Mencius. Knowledge and wisdom can come from any source. Granted it was later adopted or incorporated by several other Chapters of Club Christian like the Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian churches.
    Second, the BCP is kinda (two mostly) the Product of ONE mind or ONE purpose and ONE goal and they were Thomas Cranmer under the authority of Edward VI but the creation had nothing to do with beliefs. The BCP was a mandated political document and the pattern for the much later but also mandated and political document called the Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
    God had absolutely nothing to do with either documents; the former was meant to provide an alternative to the Roman Catholic Missal and the latter to first provide a justification for the Divine Right of Kings and also tone down the animosity between the Anglican and Roman Catholic communions.
    Both were meant as tools to reduce internecine violence and establish and legitimize the ruler at the time.
    Phat writes:
    jar writes:
    JESUS, if JESUS exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
    I need evidence of this. It sounds totally WRONG.
    Could that be because you want a God that is useful to YOU?
    Don't we return continually to the concept that a God or even Jesus should be of value to YOU?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 97 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 10:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 402 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 99 of 1086 (865911)
    11-02-2019 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
    11-01-2019 12:01 PM


    Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
    Phat writes:
    ... when you say really stupid things like "the snake told the truth. God (character) lied"...
    That's exactly what it says. I'm still waiting for you to defend the apologists' mangled version. Until you can do that, you're just making yourself look foolish.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 92 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:01 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 100 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:14 PM ringo has replied
     Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:20 PM ringo has replied
     Message 102 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:29 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 100 of 1086 (865923)
    11-02-2019 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
    11-02-2019 11:50 AM


    Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
    First of all, the Bible is not simply some storybook of a compilation of goatherder stories describing the various ideas about a god whom they believed in. It is a story of a people who actually had a god (God) reveal Himself to them. They may have had different levels of understanding based on their exposure to information and consensus from other goatherders (and fishermen and..well, Levites) but my belief is that the Bible describes peoples' attempts to understand One God...not mere human descriptions of many. Once Jesus came along, the deal was done. No longer would there be any disagreement over which God was/is represented. Our only squabbles now revolve around the question of whether God exists or not (a free-will thing in our own minds) and whether Jesus was simply some human teacher who died like every other teacher in history or whether Jesus represented One God.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by ringo, posted 11-02-2019 11:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 11-02-2019 6:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 113 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 1:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 101 of 1086 (865924)
    11-02-2019 4:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
    11-02-2019 11:50 AM


    Oh and about the Snake
    The snake story which you defend is implausible to me for several reasons.
    1) Assuming we are discussing a book of origins and a growing understanding of who God is, the consensus seems to be that God cannot lie. If as you claim God did in fact lie, what do you expect people to do? Worship the snake? Worship the Books themselves, as GDR warns us against? Throw all apologetics, gods, and Gods out the window and go watch the ducks? I am not challenging what the book says. I am challenging what you get out of it and why you defend it simply because "the book says it". You know all too well what a lot of apologetics teaches. It is becoming more and more evident to me, yet I am searching for some original ideas. ( I never find them from you. )

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by ringo, posted 11-02-2019 11:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 103 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2019 4:36 PM Phat has replied
     Message 114 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 102 of 1086 (865927)
    11-02-2019 4:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
    11-02-2019 11:50 AM


    Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
    Upon further reflection, I am not defending what the book says. That is your job. I am not defending the accusation that anyone can then make up whatever they want, which breeds moral relativism, which I somewhat oppose. I am not defending myself except that I believe that I am one of the ones who have the Spirit. So to break it all down, I am defending the idea that the ones with the Spirit are the fiery preachers, anointed teachers, and wise prophets of the modern age.
    I make no claim to wisdom. I make no claim to strict exclusivity, though I will defend absolute truth. For that reason, I reject the snake story described the way you describe it. You are and have always been a contrarian. ( adjective contrarian
    opposing or rejecting popular opinion; going against current practice.
    )
    Granted you could be right. I don't yet see it, however.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by ringo, posted 11-02-2019 11:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-03-2019 1:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17815
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 103 of 1086 (865928)
    11-02-2019 4:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
    11-02-2019 4:20 PM


    Re: Oh and about the Snake
    quote:
    The snake story which you defend is implausible to me for several reasons
    If you want to say that the story is wrong, say it’s wrong. I don’t think that either Ringo or jar claim that the story is literally true.
    quote:
    1) Assuming we are discussing a book of origins and a growing understanding of who God is, the consensus seems to be that God cannot lie. If as you claim God did in fact lie, what do you expect people to do?...
    For Ringo or jar to claim that God actually lied they would have to assert that the story is true.
    quote:
    ... Worship the snake? Worship the Books themselves, as GDR warns us against?
    I hardly think that worshipping the apologists is better, but it seems to be what you are suggesting.
    quote:
    I am not challenging what the book says.
    You certainly are. You are the one misrepresenting the story, and the one who calls it implausible.
    quote:
    I am challenging what you get out of it and why you defend it simply because "the book says it".
    I think the only defending they are doing is defending the story against misrepresentation. And if you are championing misrepresentation of the story you are going further than merely challenging it.
    quote:
    You know all too well what a lot of apologetics teaches
    And that is why they reject it. With good reason.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:20 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:57 PM PaulK has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 104 of 1086 (865931)
    11-02-2019 4:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 103 by PaulK
    11-02-2019 4:36 PM


    Re: Oh and about the Snake
    Hi Paul. I'm glad that you jumped on board this one. I was getting bored.
    If you want to say that the story is wrong, say it’s wrong.
    For now, let's just say that jar and ringos interpretation is unpopular. It makes God out to be a human creation and a character who lies in the book. I'm going to stop trying to defend the book. I'm simply defending the premise that I got from the book, which is that Jesus is alive, GOD is His Father, and the Holy Spirit is living and active among believers today. I risk the charge of exclusivity by also saying that only a minority of churchgoers have the Spirit, are saved, or are otherwise in touch with universal wisdom. You may challenge this by showing us some wisdom of your own.
    For Ringo or jar to claim that God actually lied they would have to assert that the story is true.
    jar gets around that one by calling God the "god character", lending support to his idea that there are many different "god characters" within the book. Apologists would counter that by saying that some things are only discerned through "spiritual eyes". None of you believe in Classic Apologetics, as your argument is that it was used to push an agenda and that the modern truth-seeker (as you all claim to be, as do I) searches for evidence, reasoned argumentation, and context rather than a voice of intuition within themselves. Which is a good counter-argument, I will admit.
    I hardly think that worshipping the apologists is better, but it seems to be what you are suggesting.
    GDR used to warn Faith against worshiping the Bible, so if that is also what you are suggesting, I can see your point. Some say that Jesus was the first true apologist and that the Apostle Paul was the next one. Critics say that Paul was trying to start his own religion in opposition to the Judaism he was raised in. You also assert that redactors sabotaged John and other parts of the book, whichj if we believe that, dismantles the book as a valid description of Christian belief.
    So that gets us back to square one. We are the modern goatherders making up our own stories about God. These days, the atheist voice is gaining ground as a rational alternative belief system. In that regard, I will say that I was impressed with this secular humanist, mentioned in my other topic:
    Secular Humanism: A Proactive Approach to Goodness | Bart Campolo
    Campolos basic message is similar to what ringo has been trying to get me to accept as well as jar. That it is not the source that is important but the content as lived out through us in our daily lives. Critics could argue that this is in fact the Holy Spirit, and I believe that Campolo actually does have the Holy Spirit and is a stealth operative for God. He even gets to lecture the atheists!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2019 4:36 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 105 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2019 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17815
    Joined: 01-10-2003
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    (1)
    Message 105 of 1086 (865932)
    11-02-2019 5:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
    11-02-2019 4:57 PM


    Re: Oh and about the Snake
    quote:
    For now, let's just say that jar and ringos interpretation is unpopular. It makes God out to be a human creation and a character who lies in the book.
    At most it makes the story a human creation. Like the The Three Musketeers is a human creation and the D’Artagnan of the book is largely Dumas’ creation. There was still a real D’Artagnan - and the sane can be said for many of the other characters.
    And given the depiction of God in the story seems to be more like a pagan polytheistic God I don’t see why Christians would expect that depiction to be very accurate.
    quote:
    jar gets around that one by calling God the "god character, lending support to his idea that there are many different "god characters" within the book
    That isn’t getting around it that is pretty clearly saying the he is only talking about the story as a story. And I don’t see anything wrong with acknowledging the fact that the Bible has differing depictions of God.
    quote:
    Apologists would counter that by saying that some things are only discerned through "spiritual eyes".
    Which is a perfect excuse for saying whatever they want. Wilfully blind eyes might be a better description (at best).
    quote:
    ... Some say that Jesus was the first true apologist and that the Apostle Paul was the next one. Critics say that Paul was trying to start his own religion in opposition to the Judaism he was raised in. You also assert that redactors sabotaged John and other parts of the book, whichj if we believe that, dismantles the book as a valid description of Christian belief.
    I don’t think that Jesus was an apologist, although Paul might be.
    I don’t think that I’ve accused redactors of sabotaging any part of the Bible, nor am I sure what sabotage you mean. And why would the redactors beliefs be less valid as Christian beliefs than the unedited text?
    quote:
    Campolos basic message is similar to what ringo has been trying to get me to accept as well as jar. That it is not the source that is important but the content as lived out through us in our daily lives.
    Tell me how often the Bible says that the source is more important than the message? Indeed, when a message is attributed to God, isn’t the point to say that the message IS important?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 104 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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