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Author Topic:   Ray Comfort on The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 146 (864751)
10-16-2019 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
10-15-2019 5:09 PM


Re: Source vs Content
jar writes:
So a Christian can only gain wisdom through God, not through experience or evidence or environment or ...?
Or what? Mencius?
  • The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
  • The Bible talks of true wisdom as coming from the Spirit. (Holy Spirit)
    You claim to belong to some Socratic Club of critical thinking and secular wisdom.(and call it Christianity) But without the Holy Spirit, you are nothing more than a philosopher.
    Lets compare your boy Mencius with traditional Christianity:
    quote:
    World Religions: A Voyage of Discovery
    Comparing and Contrasting Confucianism with Christianity
    Jesus Christ is the Savior of humankind according to Christian belief. We human beings cannot save ourselves, because all of our attempts to do so are caught up in the sinfulness from which we need to be saved. Confucians, in contrast, do not see Confucius as a savior figure at all. Confucius thought humankind is naturally good rather than sinful and believed that with proper education and upright, skillful leadership, people are fully capable of achieving a good and moral life. In other words, people need training, encouragement, and education rather than salvation.
    Christians, including Catholic Christians, hold a variety of beliefs about the truth of religions other than their own. When it comes to religious practice, however, the majority of Christians practice only Christianity. This having been said, we must note that there are a whole host of different ways in which Christianity is practiced, influenced by cultural variables as well as by the interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Church Tradition, along with people’s personal preferences. Confucians, however, assume that their religious practice will be informed by the variety of religious traditions found in East Asia, including folk religions, Taoism, Shinto, and Buddhism. They see no conflict between them, understanding them as knit together into a cultural whole that transcends the discrete religions.
    Most Christians believe the Bible is a part of God’s Revelation and refer to it as the Word of God. It has been and continues to be, transmitted through the Christian Church. Confucians also have books at the core of their tradition, including the Analects, the Book of Mencius, and the Great Learning. These
    books and others similar to them are regarded as having been written or assembled by wise human beings, or sages, rather than being divinely inspired.
    The principal route of transmission through the ages has been through the formal educational system. The strength of Confucius’s own character also
    informs the Confucian way of religion. He is an example of the ideal human being, as is Jesus for Christian faith.

    This pamphlet supports my theory that your Christianity was formed through Sacred Studies and that you took your ideas from all religions. It is why you scoff at the notion of "getting saved or enlightened through salvation and support the idea of enlightenment through education, as the Confucian philosophy supports.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 5:09 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 49 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 8:40 AM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (2)
    Message 47 of 146 (864752)
    10-16-2019 8:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
    10-16-2019 6:00 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Phat writes:
    The whole point of Christianity is that He must increase and we must decrease.
    Do you have any idea just how silly that statement is? Are you possibly under the impression that you can do something to increase God?
    Phat writes:
    You deify yourself by keeping your focus on what you can do.
    Do you have any idea of how silly that statement is? Are you under the impression that I should expect the Holy Jeeves to make my breakfast?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 6:00 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 1:49 PM jar has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 48 of 146 (864753)
    10-16-2019 8:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
    10-16-2019 6:00 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Your god sounds like a right, real asshole. Needy, insecure narcissist(remind you of anyone?)
    The thing that drives me crazy about fundies is that they claim all this super supernatural crap for their god. Omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence and then they shrink it down as this spiteful, vengeful toddler.
    That you think you could understand or conceive of something so powerful is laughable. To explain all these inconsistencies, all of you just string impressive sounding words together.
    Laughable.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 6:00 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 2:15 PM Theodoric has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 49 of 146 (864754)
    10-16-2019 8:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
    10-16-2019 6:26 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Phat writes:
    This pamphlet supports my theory that your Christianity was formed through Sacred Studies and that you took your ideas from all religions.
    So you are saying my beliefs were formed hrough knowledge instead of ignorance?
    Phat writes:
    It is why you scoff at the notion of "getting saved or enlightened through salvation and support the idea of enlightenment through education, as the Confucian philosophy supports.
    No, I scoff at those ideas because they are simply silly.
    No one can know they are saved while they are still alive. Judgement takes place after we die.
    Selling salvation is easy and profitable and the guy pitching the spiel from the back of the Medicine Wagon won't be around if the customers find out the snake-oil didn't work. And he keeps the horse hitched just in case egress is the better choice.
    But what is amazing is even after they get exposed as cons they still get embraced by their victims. "It's Fool Me Once"; "Oh wow, do it again!"

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 6:26 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 50 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 1:21 PM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 50 of 146 (864770)
    10-16-2019 1:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 49 by jar
    10-16-2019 8:40 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    jar writes:
    No one can know they are saved while they are still alive.
    No one can know they are talking with God, either. One can believe that God is quite capable of communion. One can believe that God cares about them. You will ask why God should care about me any more than pond scum...and I will reply that I have no idea, but that I believe that God cares about humans. One does not have to be a traveling conman in order to espouse the idea that God loves us and wants communion with us.
    You may ask how do I know if its God talking or a bad burrito. I will say that I dont know in the strict definition of the term, but that I would expect a Deity to be fully capable of doing so. You believe that all of this belief about salvation and having a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe is a giant swindle. I dont know where you became so skeptical, apart from watching people such as Swaggert, Robinson, Falwell, and the modern counterparts swindle the masses. Yet all that you have established is that there are many conmen in Christianity. There is no reason to dismiss the basic teaching unless you have a personal repugnance to it, as you seem to have. Its how you were taught, I suppose.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 8:40 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-16-2019 3:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 51 of 146 (864771)
    10-16-2019 1:24 PM


    Phat writes:
    There is no reason to dismiss the basic teaching unless you have a personal repugnance to it, as you seem to have.
    I'm sorry Phat but there is one major reason to dismiss the marketing of salvation and that is the simple fact that it is impossible for any of the people marketing salvation to even know if there is even ANYTHING in the bottle they are selling.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 1:57 PM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 52 of 146 (864773)
    10-16-2019 1:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 47 by jar
    10-16-2019 8:20 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    jar writes:
    Are you possibly under the impression that you can do something to increase God?
    Not at all. God is already infinite so there is no possible way that He can increase in size or power. What I mean is that the less junk I have in my soul, the more room there is in me for the Holy Spirit to magnify Himself.
    And to teach and humble me.
    Are you under the impression that I should expect the Holy Jeeves to make my breakfast?
    No, but I would expect you to be wise enough to realize that you cant do everything yourself. You told me that I likely had no idea what prayer actually is. Perhaps you can share your theory. You may believe that there is no way that you can know if you are even talking to God and if He is listening, but would you not agree that he is fully capable of doing so and that if you are honestly seeking communion with Him that He wouldn't let a devil or a bad burrito fool you and sabotage His plan for communion?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 8:20 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 3:24 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 53 of 146 (864774)
    10-16-2019 1:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 51 by jar
    10-16-2019 1:24 PM


    Clarifying jars beliefs
    I'm sorry Phat but there is one major reason to dismiss the marketing of salvation and that is the simple fact that it is impossible for any of the people marketing salvation to even know if there is even ANYTHING in the bottle they are selling.
    Do any Pastors, Priests, or teachers ever actually know that the God of whom they speak is actually real? Does this stop them? Is not the intention and motive important? Billy Graham believed every word that he ever spoke publically. He impacted a lot of people. Honesty is important. You tell us to throw God away. Do you honestly 100% believe that this is good advice...for anyone and everyone? If so, explain why. I think you may say something along the lines of "there is no way anyone can ever know that they know God and the evidence shows God is not feeding, clothing, or comforting anyone...therefore we must focus on what WE do and throw the necessity of a skydaddy away. But let me ask you this: Do you know that humans cant commune with God? Do you know that God can't or won't speak to our conscience through prayer, meditation, and in the context of thoughtful actions(such as feeding people)? Why would you risk alienating yourself from the creator simply because you have no evidence of a communion?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 1:24 PM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 146 (864777)
    10-16-2019 2:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Theodoric
    10-16-2019 8:34 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    I am curious as to why you decided that Christian belief was not worth your time. Was it the evidence that Christians themselves were nutjobs best avoided? Was it the hypocrisy of certain believers? Or was it evidence by your friend Richard Carrier and others, such as Dawkins? One more thing about Carrier. You had a lot of spite for Ravi Zacharias disclosing that a woman tried to sue him and bribe him with explicit pictures. Yet look at the behavior of Carrier! Coming Out Poly:+ A change of life venue
    You likely would defend Carrier because he never claimed to be more than he actually was, whereas Zacharias was exposed through his human shortcomings...but I see no difference. They are both fallible humans. And I don't see you as a hard atheist either. You allow that GOD might exist, in my opinion...simply by what you say.
    Theodoric writes:
    That you think you could understand or conceive of something so powerful is laughable.
    Does that mean that something or someone so powerful is a possibility? Does that not also mean that something so powerful would have to be the one to initiate communication with humans since humans are incapable of it being the other way around?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 8:34 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 55 of 146 (864781)
    10-16-2019 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
    10-16-2019 2:15 PM


    Re: Source vs Content
    I am curious as to why you decided that Christian belief was not worth your time.
    I was raised nominally Catholic, but have never had an actual belief in the supernatural. As a child I may have but as I grew older I left behind childish beliefs. I never decided christian beleif was not worth my time.(Why do you always throw out strawman arguments? Is it because you have no actual arguments?
    Or was it evidence by your friend Richard Carrier and others, such as Dawkins?
    I don't know them at all. Another strawman?
    You had a lot of spite for Ravi Zacharias disclosing that a woman tried to sue him and bribe him with explicit pictures.
    Strawman alert. I have no spite for him. He is a charlatan and a serial liar. This is proven.
    Yet look at the behavior of Carrier!And I don't see you as a hard atheist either. You allow that GOD might exist, in my opinion...simply by what you say.
    Whatever. There is no evidence for a god and their is no evidence for the jesus of your bible. If there is a god being, it is beyond our ken to even conceive. So no I have no belief there is a god, of any sort. There is no such thing as supernatural. If there were there would be some sort of evidence.
    Does that mean that something or someone so powerful is a possibility?
    Irrelevant.
    Does that not also mean that something so powerful would have to be the one to initiate communication with humans since humans are incapable of it being the other way around?
    Evidently you have trouble understanding unable to conceive of something.
    Maybe next time drop all the strawman arguments.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 2:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 56 of 146 (864782)
    10-16-2019 3:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
    10-16-2019 1:21 PM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Thugpreacher writes:
    I dont know where you became so skeptical, apart from watching people such as Swaggert, Robinson, Falwell, and the modern counterparts swindle the masses. Yet all that you have established is that there are many conmen in Christianity.
    If somebody claims that all dogs are brown, the onus is on you to present one that isn't.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 1:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 57 of 146 (864783)
    10-16-2019 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
    10-16-2019 1:49 PM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Phat writes:
    What I mean is that the less junk I have in my soul, the more room there is in me for the Holy Spirit to magnify Himself.
    And so another platitude with no meaning.
    Phat writes:
    No, but I would expect you to be wise enough to realize that you cant do everything yourself.
    And I have never said that I can do everything myself so again, your rep0ly is simply another irrelevant platitude.
    Phat writes:
    You may believe that there is no way that you can know if you are even talking to God and if He is listening, but would you not agree that he is fully capable of doing so and that if you are honestly seeking communion with Him that He wouldn't let a devil or a bad burrito fool you and sabotage His plan for communion?
    I don't know Phat. Again, how would I or anyone know that?
    Phat writes:
    You told me that I likely had no idea what prayer actually is.
    I doubt it would help but a good place to start would be a to take time to contemplate what you really can do and then to do it.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 1:49 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 2:33 AM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 146 (864812)
    10-17-2019 2:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 57 by jar
    10-16-2019 3:24 PM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Phat writes:
    You told me that I likely had no idea what prayer actually is.
    jar writes:
    I doubt it would help but a good place to start would be to take time to contemplate what you really can do and then to do it.
    To whom is your prayer addressed to again? Seems as if you are praying to yourself for yourself to become stronger and wiser.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 3:24 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:40 AM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 59 of 146 (864816)
    10-17-2019 9:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
    10-17-2019 2:33 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    Phat writes:
    To whom is your prayer addressed to again?
    Why would it matter? What is important is the content and results.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 2:33 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 10:04 AM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 146 (864822)
    10-17-2019 10:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by jar
    10-17-2019 9:40 AM


    Re: Source vs Content
    You are dodging the question. To you as a Christian believe that it is only provable that *you* and you alone are hearing your prayer? Im not asking you what you *know*. I am asking you what you believe. You will likely claim that Christianity is about what one does. You may say Communion? Fuggedaboudit. Go and do, my sons. Evidently, your prayers are more like meditations. Some of your Christianity has an odd eastern component to it. Which again supports my theory that your beliefs were formed through the inclusive study of all religions rather than Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life(light)
    Truth is not inclusive. Otherwise, He never would have had to pray to His Father that we all be One as {We} are One. It would have been a done deal from the dawn of time.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:40 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:22 AM Phat has replied

      
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