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Author Topic:   Ray Comfort on The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 146 (864624)
10-13-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
10-13-2019 4:55 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Bring me one that says "The God in Genesis 1 is not the same God as in Genesis 2&3 and the Serpent told the truth while God lied."
But that wouldn't be an apologist.
quote:
apologist
An apologist is a person who argues in favor of something unpopular. If you're an apologist for deep sea oil drilling, you would argue that drilling in the ocean is necessary and the benefits make up for any environmental damage.
Apologists tend to be seen in a negative light, as defensive people who make excuses. The word apologist comes from the Greek word apologia, meaning "speaking in defense." Not all apologists are bad news; some just defend an unpopular idea. Even though apologist is similar to apology, don't confuse them if you make an apology you're admitting to being wrong. But if you're an apologist, you justify your belief or action, and would do it all again!
In that line of definition, you yourself are an apologist...though I would argue that you are not defending God and Jesus the way that I understand them. You are defending the "reality" of what the bible says...even if it is unpopular. (Which it is) and I don't agree with your defense because it does not support my case for a God and a Jesus who existed long before humans even evolved enough to imagine these sort of things.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 4:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 5:18 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 146 (864626)
10-13-2019 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
10-13-2019 4:59 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Phat writes:
... and I don't agree with your defense because it does not support my case for a God and a Jesus who existed long before humans even evolved enough to imagine these sort of things.
Yet it is what is actually written in the Bible even if it does not support the God and Jesus you want to create. I do not support my position, rather what is actually written in the Bible supports my position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 10-13-2019 4:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 9:47 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 33 of 146 (864642)
10-14-2019 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
10-13-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Sam Harris is no different than an apologist. He is a conman. He pontificates on subjects he has no expertise in. He does not represent any atheists or atheist views other than himself and his own views. He promotes hate and division. He is a vile human being.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-13-2019 3:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 146 (864644)
10-14-2019 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-13-2019 5:18 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
jar writes:
I do not support my position, rather what is actually written in the Bible supports my position.
And what does God say to you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 5:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 9:50 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 35 of 146 (864645)
10-14-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
10-14-2019 9:47 AM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Phat writes:
And what does God say to you?
How can I know it is God talking to me?
Further, what does that have to do with what is actually written in the Bible?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 9:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 10:11 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 146 (864646)
10-14-2019 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
10-14-2019 9:50 AM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
jar writes:
what does honesty have to do with my pointing out what is actually written in the Bible Stories?
Because you stubbornly cling to the title of being a Christian when the fact remains that you teach the Bible without giving it the credit that generations of Christian teachers have given it. You basically conclude that any teaching in the books shows us what *we* are charged to do and that God (and Jesus) are mere characters in the stories. Sorry, Charlie but this is a dishonest representation of Christianity in general. Remind me to come and speak to your club.
Apologetics writes:
Today, there is an assault on the inerrancy of Scripture that tells us the bible is a mixture of both truth and error. ultimately, however, this reflects a low view not only of Scripture but also of God. If God is the source of all truth and His Word is truth (John 17:17), to say that He gave us a bible full of errors is to cast doubt on His character. Inerrancy does not mean the bible speaks with scientific precision, but it does mean that what it does teach is wholly true.
And I am sure that you will challenge this assertion. Yes, jar you do have a sound argument. But let's discuss it.
jar writes:
How can I know it is God talking to me?
Further, what does that have to do with what is actually written in the Bible?
Lets set aside the argument of what is actually written (for a moment). You are not the only person who has read the bible, after all.
Let's get back to the topic of jar vs the "other" apologists.
jar writes:
But what I actually say is so far I see no evidence that any apologist is not a sham and snake-oil salesman. I don't doubt that many might even believe the snake oil really has medicinal properties but they never seem to test their product to find out if it really is medicinal.
OK, first of all, what is their "product"? For the sake of argument, lets say that their product is to convince people that Jesus is alive and that GOD wants to have a personal relationship with them. We need to ask ourselves if this is
1) A realistic product? (Yes, it has absolutely no liability! )
2) A desired product? (This gets to the issue of why *you* never desired it. I suspect it is because you valued what you were taught...namely that honor and personal responsibility were preferable to a free lunch, a decoder ring, and a get-out-of-hell free card.)
jar writes:
How can I know it is God talking to me?
One could ask themselves how many possible voices could be in their mind at the same time. If we turn off the TV, the radio, the internet, and quit reading the fake news (or even the real news) we may clear a few of them up. Now...alone in your room, do you ever kneel down and pray? Talk to God? Or do you consider this silly and unproductive?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 9:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 146 (864650)
10-14-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
10-14-2019 10:11 AM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Phat writes:
Because you stubbornly cling to the title of being a Christian when the fact remains that you teach the Bible without giving it the credit that generations of Christian teachers have given it. You basically conclude that any teaching in the books shows us what *we* are charged to do and that God (and Jesus) are mere characters in the stories. Sorry, Charlie but this is a dishonest representation of Christianity in general. Remind me to come and speak to your club.
No Phat, that is NOT what I say. I don't teach a Bible, I report what the Bible actually says.
The characters in the stories are, guess what? They are characters in stories.
Sorry Phat but thems the actual reality.
AbE:
Phat writes:
Now...alone in your room, do you ever kneel down and pray? Talk to God? Or do you consider this silly and unproductive?
I often pray, not any time, and I can even walk and pray at the same time. Talk to God? How would I know I was talking to God?
You keep harping on the same old stuff yet never ever explain how it is possible or how anyone could know that is what they were doing.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 12:32 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 146 (864653)
10-14-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
10-14-2019 11:39 AM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
im a bit confused. Explain to me how one can pray and not be having a conversation/dialogue or even monologue with God? I'm guessing that you are meditating on what *you* could do that day to help someone. Which is commendable. May God be with you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 11:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 12:52 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 146 (864660)
10-14-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
10-14-2019 12:32 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
Phat writes:
Explain to me how one can pray and not be having a conversation/dialogue or even monologue with God?
Explain to me how I could know I was having a conversation/dialogue or even monologue with God?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 12:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 11:51 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 146 (864690)
10-14-2019 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
10-14-2019 12:52 PM


Re: Lets Discuss Modern Apologists Here
So you are essentially claiming that throughout History, anyone and everyone who was perceived as being close to God, in reality, had no clue who they were talking to and if in fact, they were talking to anyone, right? In addition, anyone who thought they heard wisdom or insight through prayer was in fact delusional. Got it. And why did you claim to be a Christian again? Oh, thats right...you belonged to an established church and were officially certified by them. Got it. And so you essentially teach that God is unknowable and that we are charged to do our best according to our own moral compass regarding right and wrong...which IIRC was a great gift received by humanity symbolically in the tales of Mythos. Got it.
You are teaching people to essentially throw God away. I knew it. Whats scary is that no one can stop you from damaging the faith of many weaker individuals. Iano once said that you were essentially a fifth columnist. Now I see what he meant. So what's the difference between what you do and what a secular humanist atheist does by belonging to the rotary club? And I still think it is a bastardization of terms to call yourself a Christian and yet advocate throwing God away. Maybe you and the rotary club can feed a few people, carry in groceries for older neighbors, and spread this secular teaching among the masses in your fight against Biblical Christianity and what you perceive as willful ignorance.
God might be proud of you, but I highly doubt it.
Of course, then again He might be angry at me also. And i can no more throw Him away than could I throw away Oxygen or Gravity or Consciousness.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 10-14-2019 12:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 7:16 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 41 of 146 (864698)
10-15-2019 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
10-14-2019 11:51 PM


once again just misrepresentation
Phat writes:
So you are essentially claiming that throughout History, anyone and everyone who was perceived as being close to God, in reality, had no clue who they were talking to and if in fact, they were talking to anyone, right? In addition, anyone who thought they heard wisdom or insight through prayer was in fact delusional.
No Phat, I have asked at least once on this board "How can anyone know they are close to God or that they were talking to God.
And no one has ever offered an answer.
And I have said at least once on this board that it is the content that is significant rather than the source. If someone comes up with a wise thought then that is good regardless of whence came that wisdom.
Phat writes:
You are teaching people to essentially throw God away.
All of the Gods and gods humanity has ever created should be thrown away. Throw away the "Savior" and the "Father" and the "Servant". Stop waiting for God to make you win the lottery or fix Social Security or solve Global Warming or End War. GOD is not Jeeves.
Phat writes:
Maybe you and the rotary club can feed a few people, carry in groceries for older neighbors, and spread this secular teaching among the masses in your fight against Biblical Christianity and what you perceive as willful ignorance
Who else can carry in groceries?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 10-14-2019 11:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 3:27 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 146 (864717)
10-15-2019 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
10-15-2019 7:16 AM


Source vs Content
jar writes:
I have asked at least once on this board "How can anyone know they are close to God or that they were talking to God.
And no one has ever offered an answer.
Perhaps there is no answer. As a Christian, why do you fight and debate your own people? How can one be a Christian and not know God? Isn't it obvious that it is a belief and not an objective proof?
jar writes:
And I have said at least once on this board that it is the content that is significant rather than the source. If someone comes up with a wise thought then that is good regardless of whence came that wisdom.
Now you have moved the goalposts. In my mind, it would be more proper to label someone who believed that wisdom could come from many sources as a philosopher or spiritually minded person. A Christian by definition would believe that such wisdom came from GOD or at best arose from a conversation about the God defined through one of several Creeds...(we always referred to the Nicene Creed in our past arguments)
We established that Christianity was but a belief. It has never been shown to be an objective fact. Moreover, subjectively it has wandered all over the map. You yourself even say that God is logically unknowable and that Jesus may never have existed and in fact has no need to exist as..(how did you put it?) even if the stories were simply tales told 'round a campfire, they still had value. Which in my mind is more philosophical than Biblically Christian. Furthermore, why is the content more valuable than the source? In the Beginning GOD...seems, more source focused than content-focused. You may disagree, defending the plain reading of the Bible as content-based. But I might point out that what is happening is simple philosophy. Without the source, you don't have any light.
Who else can carry in groceries?
Point taken. It is *we* who represent the content...or as ringo likes to say, "The Message." This supports your argument that Heaven will hypothetically be filled with more diverse people than simply those who claim to be Christians and children of the Source.
My whole argument is that you confuse the issue by focusing only on content and defending the idea that the Source can never be validated. Who do you pray to? Yourself???
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 7:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 5:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 44 by dwise1, posted 10-15-2019 8:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 146 (864726)
10-15-2019 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
10-15-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Phat writes:
How can one be a Christian and not know God? Isn't it obvious that it is a belief and not an objective proof?
Knowing and believing are not synonymous.
Phat writes:
In my mind, it would be more proper to label someone who believed that wisdom could come from many sources as a philosopher or spiritually minded person. A Christian by definition would believe that such wisdom came from GOD or at best arose from a conversation about the God defined through one of several Creeds...(we always referred to the Nicene Creed in our past arguments)
So a Christian can only gain wisdom through God, not through experience or evidence or environment or ...?
Phat writes:
Without the source, you don't have any light.
Not even at the level of word salad rather simple sloganizing. You have no light has abso0lutely no meaning Phat.
Phat writes:
My whole argument is that you confuse the issue by focusing only on content and defending the idea that the Source can never be validated. Who do you pray to? Yourself???
I think you have no idea of what prayer is.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 6:00 AM jar has replied
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-16-2019 6:26 AM jar has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 44 of 146 (864740)
10-15-2019 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
10-15-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Source vs Content
This supports your argument that Heaven will hypothetically be filled with more diverse people than simply those who claim to be Christians and children of the Source.
Reminds me of an old joke. Or haggadah (in the general sense taught to us by Rabbi Kalir, teaching Torah through an illustrative story instead of pure analysis (which I remember as being called khalakhah -- in my notes, I wrote it in Hebrew so I have no idea how it's transliterated into Roman script)).
St. Peter greets the latest batch of new arrivals at the Pearly Gates and guides them through their orientation tour of Heaven. Taking them to their rooms in the "house of many mansions" St. Peter explains that it has a separate floor for each religion while they get into the elevator to their own floor. On the way up, they chat and ask St. Peter questions when suddenly St. Peter cautions them to remain silent when passing through the next floor. After passing that floor, conversation picks up again and somebody asks why they had to be quiet for that floor. "Oh, that's the floor for the {insert name of extreme fundamentalist sect}s. They think that they're the only ones here."
 
Similarly, in a religious sci-fi novel, it turns out that in all of human history only four humans had ever gone to Heaven while everybody else went to Hell. It turns out to qualify for going to Hell, there has to be a religious group that condemns you to go there. Since every religious group condemns all others ... .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 3:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 146 (864750)
10-16-2019 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
10-15-2019 5:09 PM


Re: Source vs Content
jar writes:
I think you have no idea of what prayer is.
Enlighten me, oh prideful one.
Your brash statement bothered me a bit, so I looked up other opinions. God forbid I am praying wrong!
One thing prayer is most certainly not and that is simple meditation on how you can do better. The whole point of Christianity is that He must increase and we must decrease. You deify yourself by keeping your focus on what you can do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 10-15-2019 5:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 8:20 AM Phat has replied
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 8:34 AM Phat has replied

  
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