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Author Topic:   Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 1 of 7 (863331)
09-24-2019 6:12 PM


Earlier in discussions on this forum, I mentioned how I was impressed with though not in agreement with Matt Dillahunty and his debating skills supporting atheism.
This latest audible book which I purchased is from an ex-evangelical pastor who became an atheist. He too has some well thought out arguments against Theism and in support of Atheism. Here is a quote:
Dan Barker writes:
Many ministers have earned respect as decent human beings working to lessen violence and improve humanity, and their contributions to the betterment of the world are applauded by all of us, believers and atheists alike. But this could be said about anybody. Ministers have no corner on compassion, no corner on charity. There are thousands of exemplary atheists who do not turn their good deeds into an excuse to pastor (shepherd) other human beings, or to stand up weekly before their flock and pontificate, or to advertise to the world how great their (non)religion is. Many atheists walked shoulder-to-shoulder with Baptists and Methodists in the civil rights marches. Most atheists I know contribute to charity and work for social causes. Ministers, priests, and rabbis are not automatically better people.
Five years ago I would have refused to even listen to such a book, but I feel as if my faith is strong enough to be questioned. He has some other gems as well...but I'm not sure how much I can be allowed to quote. Let me try:
Godless by Dan Barker writes:
If there is anything that is obvious, it is that the existence of God is not obvious.
The apologists claim that God designed it this way to allow people a more fully honest choice rather than being "forced" to drop to their knees upon observing or experiencing overwhelming undeniable evidence. But Barker was an evangelical, so his claims carry a bit more weight. He goes on to describe what many evangelicals believe (incorrectly) about atheism:
Any scientist in the world would jump at the chance to be the one who finally proved that God is real. Of course, some philosophers and theologians feel that this can never happen because a supernatural being, by definition, is beyond the reach of science, which can only examine the natural world. Nevertheless, most non-philosophers do feel that there is a wealth of evidence for a god. Miracles, changed lives, fulfilled prophecies, biblical revelation, the resurrection of Jesus, unsolved scientific questions (which they mistake for evidence), coincidences they say could not have happened by chance, inner experience, selfless acts of kindness and so on all prove to the believer that God exists. Some offer attempts at rational arguments (examined in the next chapter). Since many of these believers cannot imagine themselves as nonbelievers, they try to detect some ulterior motive for atheism. Rather than accept the straightforward statement that there is no evidence for a god, which allows the implication that their worldview might be wrong, many Christians have claimed to guess the true cause of unbelief. Here are some of the ad hominem arguments I have heard:
  • You resent moral guidelines and want to be free to live a life of sin and selfishness.
  • You dislike authority.
  • You want to be different and stir up trouble.
    You are arrogant and hate God and want to be higher than God, like Lucifer (Satan).
    Your heart is in the wrong place.
    You have been hurt by Christians, or offended by certain nonrepresentative immoralities and crimes in the Church.
    You are impatient and disappointed that not all your prayers are answered.
    You feel let down by God, who didn’t answer your prayers the way you wanted.
    You are cold, empty and pessimistic.
    You are an angry person.
    You are too stupid, blind, limited or afraid to see what is obvious to everyone else.
    You have been seduced by scientists into refusing to accept the possibility of miracles.
    You are an atheist because you don’t know the true meaning of love.
  • The arguments in this book encapsulate many of Tangles, AZPaul3's, and Theodoric's arguments which were attempts to persuade me to look at both sides (or all sides) of these spiritual discussions which we have here at EvC.
    In summation, I recommend the book for theists bold enough to want to understand (as I am struggling to do) and for atheists who want a good read and clarification of many issues which they may have been confused about.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by PaulK, posted 09-25-2019 1:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 3 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2019 6:20 AM Phat has replied
     Message 5 by Diomedes, posted 09-30-2019 9:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 4 of 7 (863623)
    09-28-2019 8:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by dwise1
    09-28-2019 6:20 AM


    My 2 cents
    Did you see the list of common assumptions above that many Christians have about why folks are atheists?
    quote:
    ... many Christians have claimed to guess the true cause of unbelief. Here are some of the ad hominem arguments I have heard:
  • You resent moral guidelines and want to be free to live a life of sin and selfishness.
  • You dislike authority.
  • You want to be different and stir up trouble. (could apply to Christians also..."The Martyr Complex")
    You are arrogant and hate God and want to be higher than God, like Lucifer (Satan).
    Your heart is in the wrong place. (Could apply to many Christians...especially conservative wealthy ones...who will help feed their church and let the planet burn.)
    You have been hurt by Christians, or offended by certain nonrepresentative immoralities and crimes in the Church. (Could apply to Christians in that they have been "hurt" by well educated atheists who deflated their confidance in their world view. )
    You are impatient and disappointed that not all your prayers are answered.
    You feel let down by God, who didn’t answer your prayers the way you wanted. (I will admit I feel this way too. Why does God ghave to bless all of the "least of these" before He takes care of me? My carnal nature is quite immature and selfish, you will note)
    You are cold, empty and pessimistic. (It could be argued that some Christians who embrace last days theology are depressed and want the world to just end...damning the planet, the forests, the jungles and animals...and especially all the "heathen unbelievers"...)
    You are an angry person. (same as above)
    You are too stupid, blind, limited or afraid to see what is obvious to everyone else. (I hear this one from a lot of secular humanist critical thinkers, who laugh at my ignorance and beliefs )
    You have been seduced by scientists into refusing to accept the possibility of miracles.
    You are an atheist because you don’t know the true meaning of love. (Substitute the word "believer" for atheist and the same could apply)

  • Barker writes:
    There are millions of unqualified Christians who have only the slightest familiarity with the bible, yet their decision to believe is considered praiseworthy. Church pews are packed with biblically illiterate worshippers. If it is necessary to have a degree in theology before making an informed decision, then millions of Christians will have to be ushered out of church..(jar would agree with that statement, asking the Christians if they have ever read the Bible!
    What I like about this book is that it frames many of the arguments between us here at EvC and explains sound reasoning for them. While I could explain away your situation by charging you with never even making it through Genesis...(Hint: Jesus is the best part of the Bible) I can't say the same for Barker.
    I will agree with Faith in that you seem angry sometimes...even though it is one of the cliches on the list. Is it her personally that annoys you? I can understand how a logical person could get exasperated with Biblical Creationism (labeling it as willful ignorance) but I might ask if you feel the same about me and my belief that Jesus is alive and is Gods character.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by dwise1, posted 09-28-2019 6:20 AM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by dwise1, posted 09-30-2019 10:25 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 7 (863819)
    10-01-2019 6:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by dwise1
    09-30-2019 10:25 PM


    Re: My 2 cents
    dwise1 writes:
    So, basically speaking, there has to be some kind of dialog and exchange. So far, you're not picking up and all we're getting is a wall of ignorance and hate.
    From me? Sorry I didn't pick up on that impression. Why not start our dialogue by asking me specific questions, which I will attempt to answer honestly and briefly, if possible. Spoiler Alert: I may use "I Don't Know" a lot.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by dwise1, posted 09-30-2019 10:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

      
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